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    Denomination & Faith Movement Discussions - Thread: For RC and EO - What did Jesus' death on the cross actually achieve for you?

    1. #11
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      The Catholic church teaches that it is by FAITH AND the doing of GOOD WORKS by baptized Christians that earns salvation for them.
      Your statement is a lie. It is completely untrue. No one earns salvation. The Catholic Church teaches that it is impossible to earn salvation.

      Lately, however, she has been floating the idea that FAITH may not actually be required, just the GOOD WORKS. That is so widely accepted by American Catholics now that a recent poll indicated that only 9% of members believe that Faith is needed for salvation.
      If some person claims that you need to earn salvation by faith & good works and they say they are Catholic then everybody ought to know that they got it wrong. They haven't got a clue.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    2. #12
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Okay, here is the "layman's simple English summary of the council of Trent's first 4 chapters dealing with Justification.
      1. When Eve & Adam fell into sin every last one of the natural descendants fell with them. The fall did not make each and every descendent guilty of the same sin of disobedience that Eve & Adam committed but it left every last one of them subject to physical death and inclined towards sins and incapable of pleasing God without help from God. Even the Jews who had help from God in the form of the Law of Moses and the warning messages of the prophets were not able to overcome the inherited weaknesses that were the inheritance from Eve & Adam. The non-Jewish people of the world also failed despite labouring to do good according to the lessons that their consciences taught them about right & wrong. Yet for all that there remained a core of freedom in their minds and hearts that despite their corruption still burned like a smouldering ember awaiting fuel and oxygen to build up once more into a flame.
      2. God sent his help when he sent The Word (God the Son) to become a man and walk in this world and set the example that was needed as well as show the way and teach in words what was needed to stay in the way of life. But even the example and the way with the lessons given in words was only part of the gift of God to save his people from their sins. So God sent his Spirit to enable the fallen children of Eve & Adam to give them the ability to hear the gospel, respond to it, receive the Life of Christ, and become united with Christ. God gave these gifts and the sacraments so that the faithful could be adopted by the Father as his sons (and daughters) in Christ. God became a man so that men (and women) may share in the divine nature.
      3. Jesus Christ died for all men (and women, I'll just say "men" from now on because you know that I mean men and women) but not all men embrace repentance and the gospel thus not all men receive the gift of Life in Christ. Here it is important to understand that the grace that enables a man to embrace repentance and believe the gospel is a gift and not something that a few hardy hard working individuals do for themselves while other lazy and wicked individuals neglect to do for themselves. Grace is a gift, 'grace' means a gift given. Grace is not wages paid for services rendered nor it is rewards given in recognition of heroic deeds performed. Grace is a gift, freely given by God. The grace that enables repentance and belief of the gospel makes the people who do in fact repent and do in fact believe the gospel worthy to partake in the Life of Christ by being in Christ. Maybe that seems paradoxical to you; being both the recipient of a gift that enables repentance and belief of the gospel and also being made worthy of the Life of Christ in union with Christ but it is not a paradox it is a mystery - a secret known only to God until God revealed it in the gospel and whose explanation is beyond human capabilities in this life. Some things are mysteries that will not be fully known until the last day and the resurrection of the Just.
      4. Among God's gifts to the faithful are the sacraments. In Baptism God chooses to give the grace of union with Christ and adoption as sons in communion with The Son of God. It is not the water nor the washing that water effects that is necessary but it is the grace that God gives by means of the application of water and the washing of regeneration that God effects through the water of baptism that is necessary. In some circumstances water and the sacrament cannot be applied (for example in the case of a martyr who is killed before baptism) but God still gives the grace when this is so because it is grace and not an act of applying water that effects the change that God's gift effects.


      The summary is this: God gives everything in salvation, he gives life, he gives ability, he gives endurance, and he gives himself. And what do we do? We wake from the sleep/death of sin when God calls us to life - like Lazarus woke when Jesus called out "Lazarus come forth" - and having been called we obediently respond - as did Lazarus by coming forth - and we live. The life we are to live as the faithful of God is marked by doing the good works that God prepared for us to do as our way of life in this world. We repent and we serve and we pray and we help others and we preach the gospel and show others how to live the life of Christ in this world. We show by doing as well as by speaking. We do not earn our way to heaven we just live as the citizens - free citizens - of heaven in this world until the Father calls us home.
      Thank you but you really haven't answered the question I was asking of "What did Jesus' death on the cross actually achieve for you?" You state that He died for all but that's it in mentioning the cross and what it accomplished. So perhaps you can delve deeper (still speaking to that gent in the bar).
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Thank you but you really haven't answered the question I was asking of "What did Jesus' death on the cross actually achieve for you?" You state that He died for all but that's it in mentioning the cross and what it accomplished. So perhaps you can delve deeper (still speaking to that gent in the bar).
      The answer is in the text but if you do not see it and do not think the "summary" answers then okay. I will leave you with what is there.

      Cheers.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      The answer is in the text but if you do not see it and do not think the "summary" answers then okay. I will leave you with what is there.

      Cheers.
      Could you maybe tell me again what Jesus' death on the cross achieved here again without the other stuff?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    5. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Your statement is a lie.
      LOL Whenever any poster feels he has to resort to that approach, we know that he has nothing more of substance to add to the discussion. I am willing to say, however, that converts like yourself think you know everything because you can trot out some document without knowing what the church actually teaches.

    6. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Not EO or RC myself, but I was RC and I know the answer.

      It means that because of Jesus sacrifice we have the chance to be saved...depending on whether we work hard enough to merit it. In other words, before Christ came nothing men could do, including keeping the Law, was good enough to merit salvation; but because of Christ taking on our sins, all that we do to please God hereafter will be counted by him for a change. We may make the grade, or we may not, but we get the opportunity to try.

      This is EXACTLY what I was taught.
      .... and what virtually every Catholic known to me indicates they were taught. Whether this IS the official and current RCC position is, IMO, impossible to know (I'm not even sure there IS one or even a hundred positions).


      We were taught things like (these I can quote verbatim because we heard them over and over and over) "God helps those who help themselves." "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through those gates by what you do." "Jesus makes salvation POSSIBLE." I had one Catholic apologist tell me, "Jesus saves no one, but he makes it possible for all to be saved." Jesus is often portrayed as a POSSIBILITY MAKER.... a door opener.... but we save ourselves.

      Usually brought up in a different context, much emphasis is given to the HELP we get in the process. The same emphasis that we find in Islam soteriology. As in Islamic theology, self CANNOT achieve this (not even close) by their own innate ability and strength, and thus need divine HELP. I heard that in my Catholic days, too. And this help comes. From the "treasury of merits" that the RC Denomination has and controls..... from the current, official list of saints as declared by the RC Denomination..... from the EXACTLY SEVEN Sacraments as currently defined by the RCC and as largely owned and doled out by the RC Denomination....and from the Queen Mary. Now, I recall at least once when Jesus was mentioned in this regard, too - but generally Jesus was described rather passively, His task was to open that door and He's been finished with that for a long time. IMO, this is "modern, popular Catholicism" on this point. But again, I don't say it is the official position (even if there is one) - I gave up trying to figure that out, it seems to to a VERY complex, blended, confused, entangled mess of Law and Gospel, man and God, sanctification and justification, an enormous MESS which (I've experienced) can be untanged to reveal an amazingly Lutheran view (a view the RCC condemned in boldest terms as heresy, officially anathematized, and split Christianity over so CANNOT hold).
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    7. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      For RC and EO - What did Jesus' death on the cross actually achieve for you?
      In a way, Christ is the re-set button for us, and not all of us want to be reset...

      But more to the OP...

      Adam failed and we are all, including Christ, born in Adam... Adam turned from God and ate of the tree and died to the Life he had enjoyed in Paradise, and 900+ years later himself died... The Plan of God is to make Adam after he matured to become united with Christ, and for this Christ would incarnate after a certain period of time, and unite Adam to Himself...

      And this is exactly what He did, on schedule, without wavering...

      The problem with Adam - We are all Adam here - is that Death entered creation through his sin, and we are all born into that death, and Christ is the Giver of Life, as is God the Father and the Holy Spirit God... In God is no darkness at all, and Death is darkness...

      Had Adam not sinned, there would be no death on earth, and Christ's coming to earth would have Him Divinizing Adam and His descendants without suffering the Cross for us... But as Scripture records, Christ is our SECOND Adam... So in His wanton Love for mankind, He incarnated into Adam's death-laden flesh, and was Crucified, that He should enter into Hades and overcome the Power of Death in His Own fallen yet sinless flesh... He entered into Death to defeat the Enemy of mankind, which is death, and in this He utterly succeeded, and this because though He entered Hades as a corpse, He was not only without sin, but was also God, and Hades had no power to resist Him there, and he plundered the Gates of Hades... And when He then took up His Life again and arose on the third day, He transformed Human Nature in His Own Flesh - And ONLY in His Own flesh - And this is why we are baptized INTO Christ, that we should overcome sin in our own flesh, having been reborn into Christ and having received the Seal of the Holy Spirit in our Annointing at Baptism, and thereby having become a New Creation... And this is why we who are now members of the Ekklesial Body of our Lord on earth are indeed ABLE to be perfected in our Walk in the Way, Who is Christ...

      But that walk presumes our being united with and in Christ and our having the Holy Spirit descend and abide in us as a new Hypostasis conjoined with God... And this is Salvation... the conjoining of God and man, which IS a new creation in Christ... This entry into Christ IS our entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, and it can ONLY be given to us BY Christ, which He gives through the hands of His Servants who as members of this Theanthropic Body actually do baptize those who have been repenting into Christ...

      What did Christ's Death on the Cross give man? It gave him union with God at his core, even the very hypostatic center of his very person...

      And this is what the OT Saints, who were more Holy than most of us, did NOT have... They became saturated in the Holy Spirit and could bring forth water out of rocks, but they themselves did not have the hypostatic union with God that Baptism gives in the rebirth of the penitent into Christ's Holy Body, Whose Head He is, and Whose Kingdom Christ Himself is...

      Enough for now...

      Arsenios

    8. #18
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      Might I ask why neither MC or Arsenios mentions forgiveness of sins in relation to Jesus' death on the cross? Overcoming sins by man is mentioned but forgiveness is not.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    9. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Might I ask why ... Arsenios (never) mentions forgiveness of sins in relation to Jesus' death on the cross? Overcoming sins by man is mentioned but forgiveness is not.
      The Way of Salvation begins with man being called by the Gospel unto obedience to it unto repentance...
      That is why John baptized unto repentance prior to Christ's beginning His ministry...
      After that, we are baptized into Christ, which requires purity of heart, which is given in that Baptism...
      And that purity of heart is given by the remission, the forgiveness, of all one's sins...
      They are ALL washed away in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration...

      Christ did not have to suffer on the cross in order to forgive us our sins...
      He suffered in order to repudiate all earthly forces of evil and gain their voluntary reception of Him in Hades...
      God forgives sins, you see, and not Christ's suffering...
      The Bible writes: "He who has suffered is no longer sinning..." [by my questionable memory]
      Christ did not suffer so you don't have to suffer...
      He suffered so you can follow Him and sin no more...

      Works synergize with Faith that God save us from death...
      "By Death (on the Cross) He hath trampled down death..."

      Arsenios

    10. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Might I ask why ...
      Might I ask you to respond to the two posts I wrote above?

      I mean, this is not a deposition, but perhaps a conversation??

      Arsenios

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