Premarital Sex, is it every right?

Ruth

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Do you think premarital sex is ever right? I have had plenty of it as I have not gotten married again because of not wanting a commitment at the time.
 

psalms 91

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It is different for everyone. I know for me sex is a very important thing to me
 

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I personally see it as a sin because of fornication that the bible warns about. We are to give ourselves to our spouses and when not married, giving ourselves to someone else steals what should belong only to a future spouse. Just my thoughts.
 

psalms 91

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I agree Lamm and it is probably a very hard one for many people
 

Ruth

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Well, I guess I don't believe everything the Bible says as these are modern times and the Bible was written thousands of years ago. I think it should be updated and I'm not the only one who thinks that. I don't have sex casually. It has to be someone I love. I don't have a man that I love right now so I don't partake of it.
 

hedrick

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Well, I guess I don't believe everything the Bible says as these are modern times and the Bible was written thousands of years ago. I think it should be updated and I'm not the only one who thinks that. I don't have sex casually. It has to be someone I love. I don't have a man that I love right now so I don't partake of it.

This is sort of interesting. Surveys suggest that most Christians actually act as if they believe this. But I'm not aware of any serious attempt to build a sexual ethic that allows it, not any church that would endorse such an ethic.

So it's never been clear to me whether the large number of people who engage in premarital sex believe what Ruth here says or if for one reason or another they simply don't follow their own ethics.

I worry about broad statements like "these are modern times ..." In principle I agree with Ruth's whole first sentence. But I also worry about leaving people without any principled way to make ethical decisions. If we just say it's OK to ignore standards when we want to, we're likely to end up in places we don't want to be.

This is more visible in dealing with homosexuality. It's clear that many Christians now accept it. I do, and my church does. But if the next generation of Christians just sort of casually ignores Scripture I think it's dangerous. My own church has tried to define exactly what Paul was getting at in the passages that mention same-gender sex, and why we don't think it applies to Christian gays. We've also tried to build a serious sexual ethic (although it wasn't officially accepted). But I'm not sure how common that is. I'm worried that a lot of people are just thinking vaguely, oh well, the Bible is out of date, and leaving it at that. Or worse, not even going that far and just kind of going with the flow.

[Incidentally, I've watched and participated enough in discussions like this that I've looked pretty carefully at what's in the Bible about premarital sex. I think it's frowned upon but not flatly prohibited in the OT, but I don't see any way to avoid saying that Paul considers it wrong.]
 

Josiah

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Do you think premarital sex is ever right? I have had plenty of it as I have not gotten married again because of not wanting a commitment at the time.


IMO, no, it's never right.
 

tango

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Well, I guess I don't believe everything the Bible says as these are modern times and the Bible was written thousands of years ago. I think it should be updated and I'm not the only one who thinks that. I don't have sex casually. It has to be someone I love. I don't have a man that I love right now so I don't partake of it.

The trouble with the notion that the Bible was written in the past and "these are modern times" is the way it creates a mentality that we know better than God.

Ultimately if we accept the Bible is the word of God, and God says something is a sin, then it is a sin and that's pretty much the beginning and ending of the matter. It's one thing to present a coherent argument of why a particular passage in Scripture applied to the ancient Israelites but doesn't apply to us but to do little more than say "it needs to be updated" does little more than create a me-centered theology in which we become our own little gods.

A related question is where we stop throwing out parts of Scripture that no longer suit us. The idea of trading with fair weights and measures is really inconvenient because it's so much easier to make a profit if you're tucking people up with dodgy weights. It's a bit of a drag being expected to give money when there are other things I'd rather do with it. Loving our neighbors gets a bit tedious too, and blessing those who curse us is just inviting them to pile trouble on top of trouble.
 

Josiah

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The trouble with the notion that the Bible was written in the past and "these are modern times" is the way it creates a mentality that we know better than God.

Ultimately if we accept the Bible is the word of God, and God says something is a sin, then it is a sin and that's pretty much the beginning and ending of the matter. It's one thing to present a coherent argument of why a particular passage in Scripture applied to the ancient Israelites but doesn't apply to us but to do little more than say "it needs to be updated" does little more than create a me-centered theology in which we become our own little gods.

A related question is where we stop throwing out parts of Scripture that no longer suit us. The idea of trading with fair weights and measures is really inconvenient because it's so much easier to make a profit if you're tucking people up with dodgy weights. It's a bit of a drag being expected to give money when there are other things I'd rather do with it. Loving our neighbors gets a bit tedious too, and blessing those who curse us is just inviting them to pile trouble on top of trouble.


What he said....


Our "Old Adam" remains... and with it is an AMAZING ability of our brain to justify sin. We humans are incredibly gifted in this area. And in NO area of morality are we more incredible than when it comes to sex. Why, you can see the smoke come out of the ears, the brain is working SO very, very hard to come up with an excuse (and of course, every cell in our bodies is screaming YEAH, which encourages the brain mightily).

And yes.... if we are just animals in heat.... if sex is nothing other than an itch to be scratched... if there is no respect for self or others or God or marriage or morality (just that itch), then if you can adequately ignore the responsibility factors (such as a BABY could result!) - well, I KNOW (boy, do I) your brain will convince you it's okay (as long as there's mutual consent among adults).

But I don't believe we are just mindless, immoral animals in heat with no brain and no morality. I don't think sex is just a biological itch that needs scratching now and then. I think sex is PROFOUNDLY intimate and personal and connected powerfully to love, marriage and family. And I think PROFOUND, DEEP respect - for sex, for self, for the other person, for God, for marriage and family - are at the center of this.

Yeah, it's hard to say "no." Yeah, for teens anyway, people will think you are weird, gay or psychologically ill (I found that in the 20's, this is replaced with a respect if not agreement). But you won't grow warts. You won't go insane or become gay. You'll just have a lot of fun on your honeymoon. And meanwhile, you can grow in love and respect.... and focus on growing interpersonal relations instead of scratching a constant itch and using others to do it.


Just MY perspective. Cuz it was requested.



- Josiah
 

hedrick

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I don't believe Ruth is saying that we know better than God. There are certainly differences between the 1st Cent and 20th that could affect how God would want us to treat sex. However I'd prefer not to make a public case for extra-marital intercourse. I doubt CH would want that. But one could be made. It has to go beyond just "the Bible is old" though.

I've spent some time looking for a web reference, and didn't find one. I find liberal and conservative treatments equally unacceptable.
 

tango

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I don't believe Ruth is saying that we know better than God. There are certainly differences between the 1st Cent and 20th that could affect how God would want us to treat sex. However I'd prefer not to make a public case for extra-marital intercourse. I doubt CH would want that. But one could be made. It has to go beyond just "the Bible is old" though.

I've spent some time looking for a web reference, and didn't find one. I find liberal and conservative treatments equally unacceptable.

I think in the context of the question it's entirely appropriate to see if there is a valid appeal to Scripture that justifies sex outside of marriage.

As you say it needs so much more than "the Bible is old". Personally I'm usually interested in a sensible appeal to Scripture that doesn't involve endless semantic gymnastics or assuming a specific meaning from Scriptural silence. I'm not sure it helps to say "a case could be made" and then doing nothing to indicate how.

Ruth isn't explicitly saying that we know better than God but the call to rewrite the Bible because it's old is implying that we know better than God, or that God's word isn't relevant to us today. If we are going to ignore some passages from Scripture (and we do, given how many of us ignore the dietary requirements of Leviticus, have tattoos, shave the edges of our beards, don't isolate women during their special time of the month etc) we need to have a clear indication of which passages were cultural and which are eternal. Absent such a distinction we end up with little more than a Crowley style "do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" as each of us decides which passages of Scripture we consider too bothersome.
 

hedrick

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Unfortunately no exegesis is going to settle things, because the real question goes beyond specific passages to how we treat Paul’s letters. The passages that might involve premarital intercourse aren’t actually specific teachings. He doesn’t say “I have it from the Lord …” on this topic. Rather, a couple of passages show that Paul accepted standards of 1st Cent Jews on this topic. (The issue is Paul. Jesus didn’t say anything on the topic.)

So the question is: Does accepting Christianity mean that we accept 1st Cent Jewish culture? If not, where can we diverge? In the 1st Cent, Jews got married earlier than today. If someone didn’t have the gift of celibacy, the simplest solution was to get married. (1 Cor 7:9) But today that often isn’t the best solution. Is this an area where we’re permitted to differ from Paul’s culture?

[One exegetical note. I Cor 7:9 is the clearest reference of Paul to this topic. But in 1 Cor 7:10 he implies that the section including 7:9 was his own opinion, not the Lord's. This is very rare in Paul's letters. We might want to take it seriously.]

People often cite data that people who cohabit are more likely to divorce when they get married. But it turns out that this difference disappeared when you control for the age when they start. (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...-step-toward-marriage-not-a-rebellion/284512/) In today’s society, marriage and cohabitation both work better if you wait until your 20s. Thus Paul’s recommendation, which I’m sure was right for the people he wrote to, may not be helpful today.

What should you do before it’s appropriate to get married? This is a question Paul never faced. He did understand that celibacy is a gift that not everyone had (1 Cor 7:7)

I looked back over my own Church’s detailed report on human sexuality, from 1991. It never actually justifies premarital intercourse. But it assumes it will happen. It says we should be providing guidance to help kids from getting pressured into doing things they aren’t ready for. The data I know says “just say no” doesn’t work. Good sex education reduces teen pregnancies more than abstinence-only approaches. (There are many studies that could be cited. E.g. see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/. The real shock in this report was how our statistics compare with other developed countries. Our prudery seems to be backfiring.)

The fact is, Christians today don’t typically remain virgins until marriage. 41% believe cohabiting before marriage is a good idea. (https://www.barna.com/research/majority-of-americans-now-believe-in-cohabitation/) Even more actually do it. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/27/why-young-christians-arent-waiting-anymore/. The links go nowhere, so I’m not citing the underlying research, but here's what their summary says: “While the study’s primary report did not explore religion, some additional analysis focusing on sexual activity and religious identification yielded this result: 80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex - slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization.”

We have a long period during where there is dating, something that wasn’t present in Paul’s time. We provide little guidance for it, because of course Scripture would have no reason to talk about how to do something that wasn’t part of 1st Cent life, and the Church’s main position is “don’t.” But I believe there are better and worse approaches. Indeed I think kids get pressured into having sex when they shouldn’t and probably even don’t want to. But by not giving advice for the kinds of relationships they're actually in, we’re not helping kids deal with this.
 
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tango

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Of course another twist is the exact definition of "marriage". In today's culture we have multiple conflicting concepts of what is meant by "marriage", especially where the religious and secular worlds meet. The state allows a divorced person to remarry although what Jesus had to say about it suggests that it's not the right thing for Christians to do. In OT times it appears that a young woman would be given to a man by her father, at which point he would (as the OT euphemestically puts it) "lie with her" and she would be his wife. Whether she even had any say in the matter is unclear.

Even with this in mind I'm not sure how Scripture relating to adultery and fornication really leaves the option of the free-for-all that modern society seeks concerning sex, as far as Christians are concerned. Coupled with warnings of "there will come a time" I have to wonder whether the modern approch to tolerate just about anything (except dissenting opinions, of course) is necessarily a good one.
 

hedrick

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Even with this in mind I'm not sure how Scripture relating to adultery and fornication really leaves the option of the free-for-all that modern society seeks concerning sex, as far as Christians are concerned. Coupled with warnings of "there will come a time" I have to wonder whether the modern approch to tolerate just about anything (except dissenting opinions, of course) is necessarily a good one.
I think there are more than two options. We're not stuck with either the 1st Cent or nothing. As you point out, there were problems with the ancient customs as well. Indeed there were significant differences between the OT and 1st Cent Judaism (which is what Paul represents):
* While technically allowed, polygamy and concubines were now frowned upon.
* Standards in the OT were different for men and women. The restrictions were mostly on women, and homosexuality was only prohibited for men. By the 1st Cent sexual standards were the same for both, with men also being expected to be abstain before marriage.

Clearly today we're more focused on real consent than was the case in the 1st Cent. I would argue that fidelity needs to include dating relationships. In the good old days, girls were locked up before marriage. So kids didn't have the opportunities they do now. Furthermore, there is lots of misuse of sex and sexual images to which our kids are exposed. We have to help both young men and women see sex as something good, but also something not to be misused. We need to reinforce their ability to deal with cultural and peer pressure. But we're also going to have to respect the fact that in the end most of them will have sex in at least some of their relationships. So we need to talk with them about when and how, and also distinguish between promiscuity and responsibility relationships.
 

tango

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Certainly in the OT it seems that for the most part women were little more than property, and even in 1st century Jewish culture it's not entirely clear that women enjoyed a much greater status.

I agree that simply saying "don't" and assuming that one word will overpower the raging hormones of thousands of teenagers is naive at best. That said I think there is good reason to explain the benefits of abstinence from both a spiritual and practical perspective. Obviously young people who are not members of a faith are unlikely to be interested in the teachings of that faith but there are many practical benefits to abstinence as well, not least the avoidance of unwanted pregnancies and STIs. Obviously the avoidance of unwanted pregnancy is more of a benefit to girls than to boys, especially in very casual relationships such as the one night stand where the girl may not even know who the boy was but STIs can affect anyone and there's no way of knowing who has them.

Even looking at things from a spiritual perspective I think it makes sense to refer to the practical as far as possible. If teenagers are told the issues relating to sexual activity and practical reasons to abstain, rather than simply told "thou shalt not", it seems more likely the message will sink in and make sense. If all they get is "thou shalt not" then there's little to support them against the accusation that whoever taught "thou shalt not" is little more than a killjoy who probably doesnt get any and wants to make sure nobody else gets any either.
 

Josiah

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DISCLAIMER:

The following is a copy/paste of a post I did when I was 14 years old and still a Catholic. I posted it on a website for Catholic youth. I dug and found it in my files on my computer. I wrote this from and for teens (as a virgin). I will respond it to separately (and later when I have time).


Why I think All Should Abstain from Sex Until Marriage


1. The Bible and the Church say so. This is divine wisdom and the collective wisdom of all the church for 2000 years - it should not be dismissed and discarted. I know that the devil speaks loudly (maybe thru our hormones!) but GOD is speaking thru His Scripture and Church. We will try as hard as we can to think we know better or that we are the exception but it's not so. It should be enough to say "Because God says so!" but of course as rebellious children, we think we're too smart for God.


2. Getting to know the person in stead of their sexual organs. As we begin dating and especially when we're seriously thinking about marriage, we need to KNOW the other person. Unfortunately, some just want to know that person's body, their "parts" and how they best can be USED to scratch their mutual sexual itch. We should be getting to know the person not their body. We should be getting to appreciate them not how their body satisfies a constant itch. I think people end up in relationships and even marriage and discover in time they really don't like (or love) the other person, in fact, they really didn't KNOW them at all. They fell in love with how that person's body scratches their itch. First we need to KNOW them and come to LOVE them. Then sex actually becomes "making love" in stead of scratching itches. Eighty year olds often have a great sex life because it's about THEM and LOVE rather than they can use the body of the other for their own itches.


3. "How are you going to learn how to do it great?" I hear this a lot from other guys. First of all, I think the basics are pretty simple. Yes, I'm sure there are ways and means to make it physically better and I guess this varies from person to person. But I think that FIRST you know each other, trust each other, have a "you are who matters" attitude, and LOVE each other. That's what is needed to be great at this and to teach each other. And isn't that what the honeymoon is for? Again, 80 years olds often have great sex because they've had a long time with each other, loving and trusting and listening and giving and caring. Oh, and then all the performance issues don't come into play.


4. Fear is removed. The fear of disease. Of pregnancy. And the guilt is removed. And all that pressure is removed. And you can be on the journey of knowing each other, listening to each other, loving each other. Without all the sex stuff getting in the way, the fear of "what if?"


5. RESPECT. God designed this obviously involving children. We want to play with fun stuff, but God didn't create a game He created families. This is all related to children and families. Sure, it is enjoyable and meant to be but it's not a play thing, these are not toys they are reproduction organs. We need to respect sex as we do marriage and the family and children. And of course, while artificial birth control can reduce the chance of pregnancy, none can make it zero. We need to respect the other gender (and her sexuality) as something precious, intimate and God given. And as a part of God's gift and institution of Marriage and the Family. We are not godless animals in heat who only respect how good stuff feels.



.
 

Josiah

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DISCLAIMER:

The following is a copy/paste of a post I did when I was 14 years old and still a Catholic. I posted it on a website for Catholic youth. I dug and found it in my files on my computer. I wrote this from and for teens (as a virgin). I will respond it to separately (and later when I have time).


Why I think All Should Abstain from Sex Until Marriage


1. The Bible and the Church say so. This is divine wisdom and the collective wisdom of all the church for 2000 years - it should not be dismissed and discarted. I know that the devil speaks loudly (maybe thru our hormones!) but GOD is speaking thru His Scripture and Church. We will try as hard as we can to think we know better or that we are the exception but it's not so. It should be enough to say "Because God says so!" but of course as rebellious children, we think we're too smart for God.


2. Getting to know the person in stead of their sexual organs. As we begin dating and especially when we're seriously thinking about marriage, we need to KNOW the other person. Unfortunately, some just want to know that person's body, their "parts" and how they best can be USED to scratch their mutual sexual itch. We should be getting to know the person not their body. We should be getting to appreciate them not how their body satisfies a constant itch. I think people end up in relationships and even marriage and discover in time they really don't like (or love) the other person, in fact, they really didn't KNOW them at all. They fell in love with how that person's body scratches their itch. First we need to KNOW them and come to LOVE them. Then sex actually becomes "making love" in stead of scratching itches. Eighty year olds often have a great sex life because it's about THEM and LOVE rather than they can use the body of the other for their own itches.


3. "How are you going to learn how to do it great?" I hear this a lot from other guys. First of all, I think the basics are pretty simple. Yes, I'm sure there are ways and means to make it physically better and I guess this varies from person to person. But I think that FIRST you know each other, trust each other, have a "you are who matters" attitude, and LOVE each other. That's what is needed to be great at this and to teach each other. And isn't that what the honeymoon is for? Again, 80 years olds often have great sex because they've had a long time with each other, loving and trusting and listening and giving and caring. Oh, and then all the performance issues don't come into play.


4. Fear is removed. The fear of disease. Of pregnancy. And the guilt is removed. And all that pressure is removed. And you can be on the journey of knowing each other, listening to each other, loving each other. Without all the sex stuff getting in the way, the fear of "what if?"


5. RESPECT. God designed this obviously involving children. We want to play with fun stuff, but God didn't create a game He created families. This is all related to children and families. Sure, it is enjoyable and meant to be but it's not a play thing, these are not toys they are reproduction organs. We need to respect sex as we do marriage and the family and children. And of course, while artificial birth control can reduce the chance of pregnancy, none can make it zero. We need to respect the other gender (and her sexuality) as something precious, intimate and God given. And as a part of God's gift and institution of Marriage and the Family. We are not godless animals in heat who only respect how good stuff feels.



.


Sixteen years later - and now a married father - a pretty much agree with what I stated above. I'd put more emphasis on the last point (the respect one) but I'd largely make the same points.

Some of what I said is a result of the teachings of the Catholic Church which IMO do a FAR, FAR, FAR better job of educating youth on this than Protestants do. But most of it comes from my parents.

This served me well.... By the time I wrote this, I had already been "invited" by a girl (and - politely I hope - declined). I was NEVER legalistic or public about this, not even with friends who OBVIOUSLY had a very different ethic. This is MY heart and morality - pushed on no one. Yes, then I was a teen (maybe even through undergrad college) this was viewed as WEIRD (if known) but never ridiculed. By my mid-20's, I actually found people totally respected it (again, if known). I was not concerned about finding a bride who was a virgin - but I did.

I remembered I had written this and it took me some time to find it. What struct me was the "performance" comment. I had forgotten about that.... teen boys are quite obsessed over how they will be judged on how "good" they are. Forgot that. But I was right - love matters, the "how" is learned - and best when it's done IN LOVE and together with the one you love.


I think the church, society and parents often do a TERRIBLE job of teaching morality on this point. They teach how to put a condom on a banana but not respect. They teach that one must be "old enough" (ever met a 13 year boy who didn't think he was old enough for sex?) but not love. Songs talk about "Making love" but then "What's love got to do with it?" making it clear it's all about USING each other to deal with that "constant itch" (I guess I've used that expression for a long time - it comes from my Mom).



- Josiah
 

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(ever met a 13 year boy who didn't think he was old enough for sex?)
Yes, actually. I've taught that age grounp in Sunday School for years. I've talked with enough teenagers in our church to be pretty sure that our 13 year olds aren't ready yet. If you mean not old enough in the sense of they don't understand what it means and aren't old enough to make responsible choice, no, no 13 year old is going to think that about himself. (And I'm not convinced it's even true for a lot of them.) But if you mean that's something they don't envision themselves doing until several years later, yup, pretty much all of them. At least in our church, which is a very liberal church in the Northeast.

I'm not sure we do a very good job teaching about it either. Our Sunday School superintendent doesn't want us to talk about sex, even though the parents would like us to. (Furthermore, this year they put grades 5 to 7 together, thus making it impossible to do serious teaching of the 7th graders on any topic.)
 
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Josiah

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The common "wisdom" given to teens of "Don't have sex until you are READY" is, IMO, remarkably stupid. Not only is it void of ANY morality whatsoever, but it's entirely subjective. Speaking for ME, I CERTAINLY felt willing and able long, long, long before I got married - probably right along with puberty. Now, did I consider MYSELF to be responsible enough for such? Probably not, but the mantra is not ".... until you are RESPONSIBLE enough" (although that too is totally subjective).

IMO, the issue is not whether a boy or girl FEELS that SELF is "ready". The issue is RESPECT. And the affirmation that this is not about USING the body of another to scratch one's constant itch; these are not toys designed to play with (at the expense of another), these are reproductive organs designed to produce babies and families that is ALSO enjoyable - especially as a way to express genuine love. Our sinful nature (or maybe just our hormones) want us to be mindless, moral-less animals in heat that USE another's body to scratch our itch (yeah, sometimes it's mutual but that's still what it is for many). And yes, every 13 year old is going to shout, "Me too! Why not my itch?" Our sinful nature wants to entirely strip sex from the issues of love, respect, marriage/family, giving.... and make it a mindless and radically selfish USING of another for the sensual pleasure of SELF. Maybe this is why we have the song "What's love got to do with it?" Maybe this is why most now insist, "What's marriage/family got to do with it?" Maybe this is why extra-marital sex is increasingly welcomed. Maybe this is why oral sex and mutual masturbation are seen as fully sex (maybe even preferable) - good scratching of a constant itch, all about ME, nothing to do with love, respect, sharing/giving, marriage/family. Selfish, mindless, immoral animals in heat... seeking ways to use others to scratch our itch. I not only think our society well teaches no morality here, I think it actually supports this deprived view, including with the mantra "Have sex when you feel you are READY (to get your itch scratched)"


IMO, parents and the church need to THINK about this. And we need to TEACH our kids (intentionally) the morality and humanity of this (not just how to put a condom on a banana). And we need to do it well, because the devil will SHOUT to them constantly that they are just animals in heat with the right to get their itch scratched, that sex is just a fun sport.


That's MY perspective, anyway.



- Josiah
 

hedrick

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IMO, the issue is not whether a boy or girl FEELS that SELF is "ready". The issue is RESPECT. And the affirmation that this is not about USING the body of another to scratch one's constant itch; these are not toys designed to play with (at the expense of another), these are reproductive organs designed to produce babies and families that is ALSO enjoyable - especially as a way to express genuine love. Our sinful nature (or maybe just our hormones) want us to be mindless, moral-less animals in heat that USE another's body to scratch our itch (yeah, sometimes it's mutual but that's still what it is for many).
I agree. I never suggested "ready for" as an appropriate description of sexual ethics. I was responding to your statement. If our Sunday School actually dealt with these issues, I'd say something like what you have here.
 
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