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    Christian Theology - Thread: Did the Pope speak the truth?

    1. #21
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
      This is uncalled for.

      How does one conflate lack of belief with knowing unbelief?

      They are very different.

      One who hasn't heard to the point of believing is not damned to eternal destruction, but is wieghed against their words and actions in this life; as all are. Self proclaimed Christian's will be weighed more strictly than those who have never claimed such a state or closeness to GOD.



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      Scripture please.
      You are saying that God measures the good versus the bad and if the scales tip on the side of good, God will receive us unto Himself.
      Prove that postulation.

    2. #22
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      The only verse that I know of that speaks to this is the one that states about fewer spripes as opposed to many, not sure where that is at but I am sure you scholars will know it.
      Isaiah 40:31

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Why? Because his wife or family were Roman catholic and he chose to appease them. I know many people who do things out of family pressure and not out of personal faith.
      Second, I am not presuming. I am stating that it is deceptive to tell the child that God thought his dad was good and therefore the child's dad will be in heaven. The Pope doesn't know that. Secondly, the Bible doesn't back up the Pope at all.
      What does scripture tell us about God and his means of reconciliation?
      I dont care about the Pope... but I have a problem when a child or any person ask a Christian if soandso is in heaven and they answer with "hell", just say "i cant answer that, only God can judge" no matter if soandso wasn't spiritual/religious hence an 'atheist'.... I had to listen to a bipolar lady cry after a member of our church told her that her loved ones that have passed away are in hell because they werent baptised in Jesus name (opposed to Father, Son, Holy Spirit).... I would rather have the hippie Pope tell her some good news to comfort her. Would you beat around the bush Menno if someone asked you if their atheist father was in heaven? Or be blunt and say "he is burning in hell forever and ever" or say "I can't answer that... Only God can judge".... and if its the latter than we can end our little discussion. Also rephrase your question

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    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Scripture please.
      You are saying that God measures the good versus the bad and if the scales tip on the side of good, God will receive us unto Himself.
      Prove that postulation.
      Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, TO EVERY MAN THAT WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.
      Romans 2:6-11

      And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as HIS work shall be.
      Revelation 22:12

      God will still judge non Christians according to their works, a non believer that continued in good works is not out to save themselves but yet God will still judge them. Do you believe just because someone says they are Christian they go to heaven automatically? God searches the hearts of men, just saying God is in control of being judge, no one has the right to judge for him. The Pope believes he is the voice of God, many popes before have stated this position, so if you ask a Pope a question you will get an answer. That kid was comforted, and I am happy for him.



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    6. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      I dont care about the Pope... but I have a problem when a child or any person ask a Christian if soandso is in heaven and they answer with "hell", just say "i cant answer that, only God can judge" no matter if soandso wasn't spiritual/religious hence an 'atheist'.... I had to listen to a bipolar lady cry after a member of our church told her that her loved ones that have passed away are in hell because they werent baptised in Jesus name (opposed to Father, Son, Holy Spirit).... I would rather have the hippie Pope tell her some good news to comfort her. Would you beat around the bush Menno if someone asked you if their atheist father was in heaven? Or be blunt and say "he is burning in hell forever and ever" or say "I can't answer that... Only God can judge".... and if its the latter than we can end our little discussion. Also rephrase your question

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      I would be honest and walk them through the Bible to show them what God says. At that point the issue of the dad's fate is a moot point. The issue of the child's reconciliation with God is of importance.
      We agree that the man's fate is in God's hand. But the question of this thread is whether the Pope's answer is biblically true.

    7. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, TO EVERY MAN THAT WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.
      Romans 2:6-11

      And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as HIS work shall be.
      Revelation 22:12

      God will still judge non Christians according to their works, a non believer that continued in good works is not out to save themselves but yet God will still judge them. Do you believe just because someone says they are Christian they go to heaven automatically? God searches the hearts of men, just saying God is in control of being judge, no one has the right to judge for him. The Pope believes he is the voice of God, many popes before have stated this position, so if you ask a Pope a question you will get an answer. That kid was comforted, and I am happy for him.



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      A commonly misused passage in Romans to teach salvation by works despite the fact that the rest of Romans refutes salvation by works.
      God will certainly judge all of us by our works. It is our works that condemn all of us.
      It is God's grace that delivers us from our sure condemnation. It is NOT our imaginary good works that save us from our condemnation.

    8. #27
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      Read all of Romans 2 and then keep on going. Romans 2 leads the reader away from the law and onward toward grace. The entire letter is a wonderful treatise about grace being greater than the law.
      Romans 2:1-29
      [1]You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things.
      [2]And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things.
      [3]Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things?
      [4]Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
      [5]But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
      [6]He will judge everyone according to what they have done.
      [7]He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.
      [8]But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.
      [9]There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
      [10]But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
      [11]For God does not show favoritism.
      [12]When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
      [13]For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
      [14]Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
      [15]They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
      [16]And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.
      [17]You who call yourselves Jews are relying on God’s law, and you boast about your special relationship with him.
      [18]You know what he wants; you know what is right because you have been taught his law.
      [19]You are convinced that you are a guide for the blind and a light for people who are lost in darkness.
      [20]You think you can instruct the ignorant and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that God’s law gives you complete knowledge and truth.
      [21]Well then, if you teach others, why don’t you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal?
      [22]You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you commit adultery? You condemn idolatry, but do you use items stolen from pagan temples?
      [23]You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it.
      [24]No wonder the Scriptures say, “The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you.”
      [25]The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God’s law. But if you don’t obey God’s law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile.
      [26]And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people?
      [27]In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it.
      [28]For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision.
      [29]No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

    9. #28
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      Here's Romans 3. Notice the continuing thought that leads you toward God's grace apart from anything we do.
      Romans 3:1-31
      [1]Then what’s the advantage of being a Jew? Is there any value in the ceremony of circumcision?
      [2]Yes, there are great benefits! First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God.
      [3]True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?
      [4]Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say about him, “You will be proved right in what you say, *** and you will win your case in court.”
      [5]“But,” some might say, “our sinfulness serves a good purpose, for it helps people see how righteous God is. Isn’t it unfair, then, for him to punish us?” (This is merely a human point of view.)
      [6]Of course not! If God were not entirely fair, how would he be qualified to judge the world?
      [7]“But,” someone might still argue, “how can God condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?”
      [8]And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.
      [9]Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin.
      [10]As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— *** not even one.
      [11]No one is truly wise; *** no one is seeking God.
      [12]All have turned away; *** all have become useless. No one does good, *** not a single one.”
      [13]“Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. *** Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” ***
      [14]“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
      [15]“They rush to commit murder. ***
      [16]Destruction and misery always follow them.
      [17]They don’t know where to find peace.” ***
      [18]“They have no fear of God at all.”
      [19]Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God.
      [20]For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.
      [21]But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.
      [22]We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
      [23]For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.
      [24]Yet God freely and graciously declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.
      [25]For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,
      [26]for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
      [27]Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith.
      [28]So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.
      [29]After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is.
      [30]There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.
      [31]Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

    10. #29
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      The Pope did not speak God's word to this child and instead gave a false statement that was unwise at best.

    11. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      A commonly misused passage in Romans to teach salvation by works despite the fact that the rest of Romans refutes salvation by works.
      God will certainly judge all of us by our works. It is our works that condemn all of us.
      It is God's grace that delivers us from our sure condemnation. It is NOT our imaginary good works that save us from our condemnation.
      Right thats true for believers, but unbelievers are included in "every man" and they arent working for any salvation at all. They dont believe they are sinners because they dont believe in sin as described in the bible, they believe wrong and right, it may be possible for a nonbeliever to not receive eternal damnation if God finds his deeds in his life as humble and acceptable, if not than the versus i stated make no sense. All men will be judged according to their works, Christian or not! -FACT

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