Did the Pope speak the truth?

MennoSota · Apr 27, 2018

DHoffmann said:
Ok let me play the child...
"Sir my father passed away, we were raised Catholic and I am sore afraid that he is burning in hell *starts crying* sir you read the word, is this true? Can I pray for him?"

seriously I just want to see your response, provide scripture and all you need in your qoute response to me the child.

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"Child, only God knows who is in heaven and who is not. I cannot tell you where your father's spirit is residing. I can tell you that your father would wish you to hear these words...
Jesus love's you. He loves you so much that he came to call you to enjoy his company. You enjoy his company when you believe that your sins need forgiving and that Jesus can/will forgive you of your sins. Your dad would love for you to know Jesus forgiveness, Jesus mercy and Jesus grace. Shall we pray?"

There, that is how I might have responded. Is that an evil response? Is it untruthful? Is it uncomforting? Did I fail to point the child toward Jesus?

MennoSota · Apr 27, 2018

Albion said:
I agree with you in what you have been saying about this incident, but OTOH MoreCoffee was onto something, too.

Regardless of what a Pope OUGHT to do, this Pope isn't much of a theologian. It is true that Law and Gospel etc. are not his forte. His life has been more about politics and social organizing, and his public utterances since being elevated to the Papal office have often been clumsy, to say the least. This exchange with the boy was not atypical for Francis, although it may have been more regrettable than most because of the particular circumstances we have been talking about.

Let's be honest. The Pope teaches Liberation Theology, which is a Marxist social/political position. It should not surprise us that athiests would be comfortable with his comments.

Pedrito · Jul 5, 2018

==============================================================================================

MoreCoffee, Post #50:

The English translation for what the pope and the crowd said in Italian is:
If only we could cry like Emanuele when we have pain in our Hearts. He cries for his papa who died, and had the courage to do so before us because there is love in his heart for his papa. I asked Emanuele permission to reveal his question to the public and he said 'yes'.
"My papa died a short time ago. He was an atheist, but he baptised his four children. He was a good man. Is papa in heaven?"
It's nice that a son says this about his father, that he was "good". Do you think that God would be able to leave a man like him far from Him? Do you think that?
[the crowd responds "no"]
Louder, with courage.
[ the crowd says "No!"]
Does God abandon His children?
[the crowd responds "No!"]
Does God abandon His children when they are good?
[the crowd responds "No!"]
Here, Emanuele, this is the answer. God surely was proud of your papa because it is easier when one is a believer to baptise his children, than to baptise them when you are an unbeliever. Surely God liked this so much. Talk to your papa, pray for your papa. Thanks Emanuele for your courage.

==============================================================================================

So, piecing this together with other information supplied by MoreCoffee in at least one other thread before (possibly quotes from the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church), we end up with the following:
- Faithful Roman Catholics escape Hell;
- People from Non-Christian religions can escape Hell;
- Atheists in Roman Catholic dominated countries who reject God and Roman Catholicism can escape Hell:
---- As long as they have their children baptised into Roman Catholicism (probably to protect those children from being bullied);
- Protestants, people who love God, are condemned to Hell:
---- Because they reject Roman Catholicism’s claims to be God’s sole authorised organisation on Earth.

Maybe Protestants should have their children baptised into Roman Catholicism as a one-off exercise, just in case. To ensure their (the parents’) safety.

If they are permitted to do so, that is.

==============================================================================================

(My son is too old now for me to try that safety net.)

Arsenios · Jul 9, 2018

DHoffmann said:
I dont care about the Pope... but I have a problem when a child or any person ask a Christian if soandso is in heaven and they answer with "hell", just say "i cant answer that, only God can judge" no matter if soandso wasn't spiritual/religious hence an 'atheist'.... I had to listen to a bipolar lady cry after a member of our church told her that her loved ones that have passed away are in hell because they werent baptised in Jesus name (opposed to Father, Son, Holy Spirit).... I would rather have the hippie Pope tell her some good news to comfort her. Would you beat around the bush Menno if someone asked you if their atheist father was in heaven? Or be blunt and say "he is burning in hell forever and ever" or say "I can't answer that... Only God can judge".... and if its the latter than we can end our little discussion. Also rephrase your question

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Well presented and true...

We are not God, Who WILL have Mercy on whom He WILL have Mercy...

No one on earth can say yea or nay about the Salvation of the Atheist...

I am personally persuaded that MANY atheists will be far, far ahead of me in the line to heaven...

And THAT only IF I make it there...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 9, 2018

MennoSota said:
"Child, only God knows who is in heaven and who is not. I cannot tell you where your father's spirit is residing. I can tell you that your father would wish you to hear these words...
Jesus love's you. He loves you so much that he came to call you to enjoy his company. You enjoy his company when you believe that your sins need forgiving and that Jesus can/will forgive you of your sins. Your dad would love for you to know Jesus forgiveness, Jesus mercy and Jesus grace. Shall we pray?"

There, that is how I might have responded. Is that an evil response? Is it untruthful? Is it uncomforting? Did I fail to point the child toward Jesus?

It is most assuredly NOT telling the child that his father is burning in the unbearable agony of the fires of hell for eternity because he was a God-hating atheist...

Would such a reply reflect your honest theological assessment?

If yes, then I, for one, commend your compassion...

Arsenios

TangledWeb · Jul 9, 2018

Arsenios said:
Well presented and true...

We are not God, Who WILL have Mercy on whom He WILL have Mercy...

No one on earth can say yea or nay about the Salvation of the Atheist...

I am personally persuaded that MANY atheists will be far, far ahead of me in the line to heaven...

And THAT only IF I make it there...

Arsenios

Jesus said that the unbelievers will be condemned in Mark 16 and John 3 and that they are not part of his flock in John 10 which means the unlikelihood of Atheists being in heaven and as for you believe in the Lord and you shall be saved.

Andrew · Jul 9, 2018

TangledWeb said:
Jesus said that the unbelievers will be condemned in Mark 16 and John 3 and that they are not part of his flock in John 10 which means the unlikelihood of Atheists being in heaven and as for you believe in the Lord and you shall be saved.

Again I wonder the necessity of a judgment of all men according to their works and not just a direct pass to hell?
Let us not assume that all boastful atheist are truly atheist for I have heard of many testimony of deathbed confessors and near death experiences and that which is hidden in their hearts. Many confessing to be Christians are far off the radar so I see a mercy seat of Justice as God the final judge and not by our judgment. Indeed we judge the world as saints but God has the final say.

George · Jul 9, 2018

Arsenios said:
Well presented and true...

We are not God, Who WILL have Mercy on whom He WILL have Mercy...

No one on earth can say yea or nay about the Salvation of the Atheist...

I am personally persuaded that MANY atheists will be far, far ahead of me in the line to heaven...

And THAT only IF I make it there...

Arsenios

Wait what? That doesn’t sound like canonical Orthodox teaching. You’re saying Atheists have a better chance of getting into Heaven than you, a believer.

That is dangerous teaching.

Andrew · Jul 9, 2018

George said:
Wait what? That doesn’t sound like canonical Orthodox teaching. You’re saying Atheists have a better chance of getting into Heaven than you, a believer.

That is dangerous teaching.

He didn't say all atheist, he was a former atheist and its bold of him to state that as the believer he is -he is never 100% certain or guaranteed to pass through the gates of Heaven, a humble servant he is.

Lamb · Jul 9, 2018

DHoffmann said:
He didn't say all atheist, he was a former atheist and its bold of him to state that as the believer he is -he is never 100% certain or guaranteed to pass through the gates of Heaven, a humble servant he is.

We're certain because we believe God when He says we are forgiven because of Christ. God does not lie. If we don't believe in Jesus as our Savior our works are no good since they are not done in faith.

Andrew · Jul 9, 2018

Lämmchen said:
We're certain because we believe God when He says we are forgiven because of Christ. God does not lie. If we don't believe in Jesus as our Savior our works are no good since they are not done in faith.

Understood but confidence differs for some and its not exactly a bad thing if you ask me. Jesus on the Cross even asked why God had forsaken him... ask yourself why he asked this? Did God forsake him?
Fearing the Lord is something we must do first and then to fear no more but I fail to see the fine line, Arsenios is not promoting atheism or encouraging it, he is simply humbling himself before the Lord by pleading the blood of Christ on others before himself and thats love of others if you ask me. Jesus said forgive them, Arsenios says forgive them... for they know NOT as they know.

Lamb · Jul 9, 2018

DHoffmann said:
Understood but confidence differs for some and its not exactly a bad thing if you ask me. Jesus on the Cross even asked why God had forsaken him... ask yourself why he asked this? Did God forsake him?
Fearing the Lord is something we must do first and then to fear no more but I fail to see the fine line, Arsenios is not promoting atheism or encouraging it, he is simply humbling himself before the Lord by pleading the blood of Christ on others before himself and thats love of others if you ask me. Jesus said forgive them, Arsenios says forgive them... for they know NOT as they know.

Someone already posted verses where Jesus stated that those who do not believe will be condemned.

Andrew · Jul 9, 2018

Lämmchen said:
Someone already posted verses where Jesus stated that those who do not believe will be condemned.

My argument is that just because we label someone atheist have we condemned them.? We dont know in the end, only God does. They may parade around as atheist the same as many christians parade around as Christians but this does not make it so. All unbelievers will have their part in the lake of fire, even if they consider themselves "Christian" by simply shouting out "Jesus Jesus" -doesnt exempt them, God examines the soul.
You either have the mark of God on your forehead or you don't... -simple.. but Its not up to us to make this call, only his Angels can mark the foreheads of believers and for God alone to judge -not us.

Lamb · Jul 9, 2018

DHoffmann said:
My argument is that just because we label someone atheist have we condemned them.? We dont know in the end, only God does. They may parade around as atheist the same as many christians parade around as Christians but this does not make it so. All unbelievers will have their part in the lake of fire, even if they consider themselves "Christian" by simply shouting out "Jesus Jesus" -doesnt exempt them, God examines the soul.
You either have the mark of God on your forehead or you don't... -simple.. but Its not up to us to make this call, only his Angels can mark the foreheads of believers and for God alone to judge -not us.

God knows who has faith in Jesus as their Savior for salvation...but if the "Atheist" has faith then he won't be an Atheist in heaven. He would be a believer.

Andrew · Jul 9, 2018

Lämmchen said:
God knows who has faith in Jesus as their Savior for salvation...but if the "Atheist" has faith then he won't be an Atheist in heaven. He would be a believer.

Praise God! Amen.

Lamb · Jul 9, 2018

DHoffmann said:
Praise God! Amen.

So you agree there won't be Atheists in heaven then?

Andrew · Jul 9, 2018

Lämmchen said:
So you agree there won't be Atheists in heaven then?

Of course not!

TangledWeb · Jul 11, 2018

DHoffmann said:
He didn't say all atheist, he was a former atheist and its bold of him to state that as the believer he is -he is never 100% certain or guaranteed to pass through the gates of Heaven, a humble servant he is.

Why would a believer not trust that God will receive him into heaven but would receive a nonbeliever, that's ludicrous!

Albion · Jul 11, 2018

George said:
Wait what? That doesn’t sound like canonical Orthodox teaching. You’re saying Atheists have a better chance of getting into Heaven than you, a believer.

That is dangerous teaching.

That's the way believers in Works Righteousness reason. The atheist doesn't believe in God but he lives an otherwise good and charitable life while the Christian who really believes in Jesus nevertheless gives in to sin repeatedly, so....

Andrew · Jul 11, 2018

TangledWeb said:
Why would a believer not trust that God will receive him into heaven but would receive a nonbeliever, that's ludicrous!

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Did the Pope speak the truth?

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