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    Christian Theology - Thread: Did the Pope speak the truth?

    1. #1
      MennoSota is online now Expert Member
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      Did the Pope speak the truth?

      A young child came to the Pope and asked if his atheist dad was in heaven. The Pope had this response (watch the video).
      Personally, it saddened me to hear the Pope's response as he spoke an untruth to this child.

    2. #2
      jsimms435's Avatar
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      I don't really want this to turn into a bash the Catholic thread. Obviously there are important and significant differences between Protestants and Catholics. The Pope has obviously good intentions towards this little boy, but was horribly wrong in his conclusion. The Bible doesn't call this father "good", it calls him spiritually dead in his trespasses and sins unless on his deathbed he repented.

    3. #3
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
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      No, I don’t think the Pope was accurate in his answer.
      Would you have looked the boy in the eye and told him “Nobody is good except God, so your Daddy is now burning in Hell.”
      (I don’t think that I could have ... or would have.)

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      I don't really want this to turn into a bash the Catholic thread. Obviously there are important and significant differences between Protestants and Catholics. The Pope has obviously good intentions towards this little boy, but was horribly wrong in his conclusion. The Bible doesn't call this father "good", it calls him spiritually dead in his trespasses and sins unless on his deathbed he repented.
      Yes, this is a question of theology and the answer he gave this child. I can appreciate the desire to show compassion, but scripture disagrees with the Pope's statement regarding this child's father.

    5. #5
      DHoffmann's Avatar
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      Nvrmnd
      Last edited by DHoffmann; 04-23-2018 at 11:17 AM.

    6. #6
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      The way I took the Pope's response was that the father had his children baptized which suggested that perhaps he wasn't as much of an Atheist as he claimed because why would an Athiest permit his children to be baptized? The ones I know all balk at it and even condemn the practice. So what the pope is saying is that the father might have had some faith in God.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    7. Likes Josiah, MoreCoffee liked this post
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      On the one hand, Pope Francis is notorious (even in Catholic circles) for speaking "off the cuff" (Catholic have somewhat the same issue with Pope Francis that Americans have with President Trump, lol).... AND there are times when Francis speaks PASTORALLY rather than THEOLOGICALLY (the two should not be different, I agree).



      MY opinion:

      I agree with Lamm above.

      Additionally, God has promised that where faith is, salvation is. And thus, where it is lacking, heaven is not the final destination. But on the other hand, God is not limited by... anything. I believe that God is sovereign and is Lord of all, and thus if God chooses to welcome one who did not have faith on Earth, we cannot tell Him He can't and we can 't forbid Him from doing that. There's always that POSSIBILITY as long as we believe that God is sovereign, but it's questionable to seemingly promise such (or even imply that) as seems the case here.

      In my experience, popular Catholicism is extremely fuzzy and confused when it comes to the whole issue of soteriology - and this is simply a product of that, even at the top. I don't question the Pope's heart here but he MAY, in part, be reflecting the general confusion of Catholics on the very topic on which we should be most clear. It MAY be that's what we see going on in this situation.



      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    9. #8
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      I would really like to see MoreCoffee's opinion on the matter, and his reason(s) for it.

      So I issue the invitation to him.

      And thank him in advance.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    10. #9
      MennoSota is online now Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      No, I don’t think the Pope was accurate in his answer.
      Would you have looked the boy in the eye and told him “Nobody is good except God, so your Daddy is now burning in Hell.”
      (I don’t think that I could have ... or would have.)
      I wouldn't have turned the boys question into a public opportunity to speak incorrectly about God's holiness and our corruption. I also would not imply that the children's baptism saved the children and justified them before God.
      The fact is, if the dad remained in atheism at his death, then he was not reconciled with God, but stood in opposition to God and His Kingdom. The child needs and deserves God-ward council that explains God's holiness and man's inability to attain holiness on his own merit. That truth will be painful to bear for a child (and for anyone), but lying to the child to spare his feelings is worse.

    11. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post



      On the one hand, Pope Francis is notorious (even in Catholic circles) for speaking "off the cuff" (Catholic have somewhat the same issue with Pope Francis that Americans have with President Trump, lol).... AND there are times when Francis speaks PASTORALLY rather than THEOLOGICALLY (the two should not be different, I agree).



      MY opinion:

      I agree with Lamm above.

      Additionally, God has promised that where faith is, salvation is. And thus, where it is lacking, heaven is not the final destination. But on the other hand, God is not limited by... anything. I believe that God is sovereign and is Lord of all, and thus if God chooses to welcome one who did not have faith on Earth, we cannot tell Him He can't and we can 't forbid Him from doing that. There's always that POSSIBILITY as long as we believe that God is sovereign, but it's questionable to seemingly promise such (or even imply that) as seems the case here.

      In my experience, popular Catholicism is extremely fuzzy and confused when it comes to the whole issue of soteriology - and this is simply a product of that, even at the top. I don't question the Pope's heart here but he MAY, in part, be reflecting the general confusion of Catholics on the very topic on which we should be most clear. It MAY be that's what we see going on in this situation.



      - Josiah
      I am assume they are the same except for Trump's tendency to the sleeping around with porn stars and his cursing like a sailor and lying and name calling and everything else. . . .

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