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    Christian Theology - Thread: Is the Account of Adam and Eve LITERAL?

    1. #21
      hedrick is offline Apprentice Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      hedrick, I think you and I define the term, Christian, quite differently.
      Maybe. I define it as faith in Christ. You define it as faith in the Bible?

    2. #22
      MennoSota is online now Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
      Maybe. I define it as faith in Christ. You define it as faith in the Bible?
      No, that's not it. Although, perhaps your Christ is not the Christ of the Bible.

    3. #23
      hedrick is offline Apprentice Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....
      I don't think anyone has responded to this part specifically. You might be interested in Calvin's suggestion. He says that without the Fall, Adam and Eve would still have left this life. God didn't intend us to be permanently here. But without the Fall it would have been a peaceful transition to eternity. With the Fall this became death as we know it: a matter of pain and fear.

      For the purposes of this questions you seem to be accepting the usual scientific view of origins. In that case you're right that death was always here, and there was no unique Adam and Eve. But I don't think death has the character described by Calvin for animals. It seems to be something specific to humans with enough intelligence to understand what's happening, but insufficient faith for it to have the significance Calvin describes as the pre-Fall ideal. Hence it's part of the Fall, even if there was no ideal pre-Fall period.

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    5. #24
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      I must confess that sometimes it gives me the willies when I see people refusing to follow the science which proves the literality of the Genesis account, and its being composed of highly compressed information.

      Yes. The formation of the Earth was exactly as described in Genesis 1, from the vantage point of an observer on or near the Earth's surface. The question is, how did that ancient author know what that process was?

      Yes. God did take six yom (days, parts of days, time periods) to do his creative work. They just weren't 24 hour days as some religionists insist.

      Yes. There was a being (referred to as the serpent, as we can refer to someone evil as "that snake"), who communicated with the first human female. Elsewhere we learn that that being was Lucifer, the mighty one who was given the privelege of being in the special garden with the pinnacle of God's self-replicating creation. It was in the garden that Lucifer first revealed himself as Satan, the deceiver.

      ================================================== ============================================

      I could go on.

      But let me ask a make or break question, with a preface.

      Yes. God created mankind from the dust of the ground. Every human is so formed, and returns to dust when he or she dies. Did He do so by direct zapping (as it were), or by a definable process?

      The make or break question is:

      Is there science Ė very specific science -- that attests to the truth and accuracy of the statement attributed to the first human male: "This [is] now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. [She] shall be called Woman because [she] was taken out of man"?

      If so, what is that science? (And how does it show up the common mistranslation of Genesis 1:22?)

      Identify that science, and a whole lot of things become clear.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Unfortunately, many people won't want to know what that science is, and the wonders it reveals. Because they fear any challenge to their belief system from which they derive their comfort, whichever one it may be.

      But the wonders are there.


      ================================================== ============================================

      Finally, let it be noted that sometimes the information in Genesis is expressed in ways that ensured specific scientific truth would be passed down to us (yes, to us) through generations of people who could have no understanding in any way of that science.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    6. #25
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      Josiah in Post #1 stated:
      On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....
      ================================================== ============================================

      Death has indeed existed since life first appeared on the Earth. But not inherent, degenerative death. That is reserved for the more complex, advanced life forms.

      The basic life forms such as microbes and viruses do not die as long as they remain in a non-hostile environment and have an adequate source of nutrition. They simply divide and become two. There are now two living creatures formed from the one, and that original one did not die.

      In-built, inherent death, based on natural degeneration, is the preserve more comlex life forms, as already stated.

      In the case of the first recorded humans, God moved them to the special garden whuch contained the tree of life. Read the narrative carefully. Consuming the fruit of the tree of life was the antidote to pre-programmed degeneration.

      ================================================== ============================================

      And with respect to preexisting members of the homo sapiens life form, the Creation narrative indicates that the beings called Adam and Eve were distinctly different from all other life forms cohabiting the Earth. The make or break question in Post #24 is a clue to the path of investigation which confirms that. Only those two had the intimate, breakable relationship with their Creator. The Fall and sin constituted the breaking of it.

      Anyway, if the record of all homo sapiens being wiped out except for Noah and his family can be trusted, the existence of other branches formerly, is immaterial.

      If the record cannot be trusted, then Josiah had better hope that he has descended from Adamís line. Unless the Bible is mistaken, when it identifies the descendants of Adam as the ones being saved.

      And if the Bible is mistakenÖ Oh dear! There is no definitive authority on which to base our faith. We are left with religionism.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Because of its demonstrable and remarkable internal consistency (even if the denominations of Christendom appear to be demonstrating the opposite), Iíll put my money on the Bibleís being the authoritative source of Godís revelation to mankind. (Which includes me as a recipient, amazingly enough.)
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    7. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation....
      and thus the Fall and "sin."
      And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

      I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.
      Without it, the Bible is a fairy tale...
      By this account, Good and evil are discerned, and can be...
      With it, we see that we are born fallen, having both Good and evil in us in our fallen state...
      We find the Blessing of our profound need for labors in God's curse of Adam...
      Yes, the Curse of God is a Blessing for Adam...
      for only by his own labors can he eat...
      As a dietary matter and as a Spiritual one...

      But here is the one thing that has to be kept in mind...
      The account of First Man and First Woman in Paradise and their fall from it resulting in their expulsion from it and their inability to return is indeed the basis for our need of a Savior... For not only do we need to regain the Garden, but to mature as techne tou theou - Children of God - into adults as members of the Body of our Lord Who established His Body here on earth by means of His Incarnation into human flesh in the Blessed Virgin...

      So that while we can see the story as an allegory, like Plato's Cave, our desire to do so is based in our "diminished capacity" as fallen creatures in a fallen creation... We use logic and imagination, you see, and thereby think we can have an allegorical "understanding" of what is but a philosophic Mythos to illustrate and name a condition of the soul...

      This is why the Christian Faith is Mystery, and not a Logical Deduction/Projection... Our rational faculty is what we need to deal with the fallenness of ourselves and creation now, but prior to the Fall of Adam, this was not how he cognitively functioned... When we try to reduce the Faith to our logical proofs from anything, the Bible included, we err... So yes the account IS historical, but the history it records is from almost a "middle earth" time that from our perspective seems like the invention of Myth to show a truth, when in fact, pretty much the reverse is true... We are all in reform school FOR the sake of the reality of pre-Fall Adam's Creation, which was very Good, and not like it is today...

      Arsenios

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    9. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
      I don't think anyone has responded to this part specifically. You might be interested in Calvin's suggestion. He says that without the Fall, Adam and Eve would still have left this life. God didn't intend us to be permanently here. But without the Fall it would have been a peaceful transition to eternity. With the Fall this became death as we know it: a matter of pain and fear.
      This is an interesting point - one that I wondered about some time ago. From the biblical account, I wondered if physical death didn't enter in until the fall. Imo, "death" isn't suggested until here:

      Quote Originally Posted by Genesis 3:19
      In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
      Unless it was a statement of a truth that had already been.
      Just one of those things my mind wonders about
      I can't stop the world from turning around, or the pull of the moon on the tide...
      But I don't believe that we're in this alone, I believe we're along for the ride..
      - Dream Theater

    10. #28
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      @hedrick in Post #23 stated:
      I don't think anyone has responded to this part specifically. You might be interested in Calvin's suggestion. He says that without the Fall, Adam and Eve would still have left this life. God didn't intend us to be permanently here. But without the Fall it would have been a peaceful transition to eternity...
      Once again it would appear that human-based (fallen-human-based) philosophy is taking precedence over Holy Revelation.

      I remember hearing some years ago, Woodrow Kroll opening a "Back to the Bible" program with the words "God made Man to be with Him in Heaven". I wondered at the time, what Scripture he had based that on.

      In the visible plan of God, members of the nation Israel, and only members of the nation Israel, were to become members of the Church. It was because of their disbelief that pre-allocated Jews were broken away from that privileged position, and Gentiles were given the chance to be grafted into it. (Romans 11)

      ================================================== ============================================

      So what has God actually told us regarding the matter of human future? (Please check the contexts of the following. Space permits only the concise extracts.)

      Psalm 115:16: The heavens, [even] the heavens, [are] the LORD's; but the earth He has given to the sons of men.

      Genesis 1:28: And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.

      Isaiah 45:18: For so says Jehovah the Creator of the heavens, He [is] God, forming the earth and making it; He makes it stand, not creating it empty, [but] forming it to be inhabited. I [am] Jehovah, and [there is] no other.

      Matthew 6:9-10: 9 Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
      10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as [it is] in Heaven.


      Psalm 37:9: For evildoers shall be cut off; but those who wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

      Psalm 37:11: But the meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the overflowing of peace.

      Psalm 37:29: The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell in it forever.

      Matthew 5:5: Blessed [are] the meek! For they shall inherit the earth.

      2 Peter 3:13: But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

      Micah 4:3-5: 3 And He shall judge between many peoples, and will decide for strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, And they shall not still learn war.
      4 But they shall sit each one under his vine and under his fig tree; and there shall be no trembling; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken,
      5 For all peoples will walk, [each] one in the name of his god; and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God forever and ever.


      Revelation 15:4: Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You only [are] holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your righteousnesses were made known.

      Matthew 5:5: Blessed [are] the meek! For they shall inherit the earth.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Note that Jesus ratified what the Inspired Hebrew Scriptures stated.

      Maybe there is more to the Gospel that both Jesus Himself, and the apostles, proclaimed - more than we are commonly taught.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

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    12. #29
      pinacled is offline Prodigy Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      This question was presented to our resident pastor, who posted this:




      I largely agree....

      Although PERSONALLY, I'm pretty open to an allegorical "spin" on this.

      ONE of the things that leads me to that possibility is the very names "ADAM" and "EVE".

      I think it is POSSIBLE to "read" this as an affirmation that mankind has "fallen" and is sinful.

      I'd "buy" that completely except I agree with Pastor Richart, that DOES seem to cause a problem with the point of Saint Paul in his letters of Christ as the NEW Adam, the UN-Adam. IF a literal individual person by the moniker of "Adam" did not exist and this "Fall" did not literally happen, that DOES seem to generate some "problems" with some of Paul's points.....

      On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

      I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.



      - Josiah.
      Any one teaching a separation between literal or plain meaning is a false teacher..

      If there is no foundation?

      I've seen a few trends recently published by certain writers that is news to be warned about.
      And the publishing faculties will be dealt with swiftly for promoting lies..

      One unpleasant teaching I ran in to was somewhat subtle. They used the account of iyov (job to lure unexpecting victims into arguing against iyov. Initiating a conversation to bring readers into allignment with the accuser.

      doing so they tempted people into calling The All Mighty a liar.

      If God says iyov is blamless and upright!
      He Is..

      Be vigilant brothers and sister in Christ.
      Last edited by pinacled; 05-01-2018 at 11:17 PM.

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