• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
    Results 31 to 40 of 40

    Christian Theology - Thread: Is the Account of Adam and Eve LITERAL?

    1. #31
      pinacled's Avatar
      pinacled is offline Prodigy Member
      A graphic novel coming soon
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2015
      Posts
      696
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      5,383
      CH Challenge
      53
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      1,393
      Level
      12
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      66.47%
      Rep Power
      15
      Quote Originally Posted by pinacled View Post
      Any one teaching a separation between literal or plain meaning is a false teacher..

      If there is no foundation?

      I've seen a few trends recently published by certain writers that is news to be warned about.
      And the publishing faculties will be dealt with swiftly for promoting lies..

      One unpleasant teaching I ran in to was somewhat subtle. They used the account of iyov (job to lure unexpecting victims into arguing against iyov. Initiating a conversation to bring readers into allignment with the accuser.

      doing so they tempted people into calling The All Mighty a liar.

      If God says iyov is blamless and upright!
      He Is..

      Be vigilant brothers and sister in Christ.
      As for false teachers ignoring literal..or plain meaning.


      The Resurrection of Christ
      15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

      3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

      9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

      The Resurrection of the Dead
      12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

      20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”

    2. #32
      pinacled's Avatar
      pinacled is offline Prodigy Member
      A graphic novel coming soon
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2015
      Posts
      696
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      5,383
      CH Challenge
      53
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      1,393
      Level
      12
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      66.47%
      Rep Power
      15
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      This question was presented to our resident pastor, who posted this:




      I largely agree....

      Although PERSONALLY, I'm pretty open to an allegorical "spin" on this.

      ONE of the things that leads me to that possibility is the very names "ADAM" and "EVE".

      I think it is POSSIBLE to "read" this as an affirmation that mankind has "fallen" and is sinful.

      I'd "buy" that completely except I agree with Pastor Richart, that DOES seem to cause a problem with the point of Saint Paul in his letters of Christ as the NEW Adam, the UN-Adam. IF a literal individual person by the moniker of "Adam" did not exist and this "Fall" did not literally happen, that DOES seem to generate some "problems" with some of Paul's points.....

      On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

      I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.



      - Josiah.
      ole paul and athens reminds me of some of the forums ive visited.

      After passing through Amphipolis and Apollonia, Sha’ul and Sila came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue. 2 According to his usual practice, Sha’ul went in; and on three Shabbats he gave them drashes from the Tanakh, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and that “this Yeshua whom I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah.” 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and threw in their lot with Sha’ul and Sila, as did a great many of the Greek men who were “God-fearers,” and not a few of the leading women.

      5 But the unbelieving Jews grew jealous; so they got together some vicious men from the riffraff hanging around in the market square, collected a crowd and started a riot in the city. They attacked Jason’s house, hoping to bring Sha’ul and Sila out to the mob. 6 But when they didn’t find them, they dragged Jason and some other brothers before the city authorities and shouted, “These men who have turned the whole world upside down have come here too! 7 And Jason has let them stay in his home! All of them are defying the decrees of the Emperor; because they assert that there is another king, Yeshua!” 8 Their words threw the crowd and the authorities into a turmoil, 9 so that only after Jason and the others had posted bond did they let them go. 10 But as soon as night fell, the brothers sent Sha’ul and Sila off to Berea.

      As soon as they arrived, they went to the synagogue. 11 Now the people here were of nobler character than the ones in Thessalonica; they eagerly welcomed the message, checking the Tanakh every day to see if the things Sha’ul was saying were true. 12 Many of them came to trust, as did a number of prominent Greek women and not a few Greek men.

      13 But when the unbelieving Jews of Thessalonica learned that the word of God had been proclaimed by Sha’ul in Berea as well, they went there too to make trouble and agitate the crowds. 14 The brothers sent Sha’ul away at once to go down to the seacoast, while Sila and Timothy stayed behind. 15 Sha’ul’s escort went with him as far as Athens, then left with instructions for Sila and Timothy to come as quickly as they could.

      16 While Sha’ul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit within him was disturbed at the sight of the city full of idols. 17 So he began holding discussions in the synagogue with the Jews and the “God-fearers,” and in the market square every day with the people who happened to be there.

      18 Also a group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers started meeting with him. Some asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others, because he proclaimed the Good News about Yeshua and the resurrection, said, “He sounds like a propagandist for foreign gods.” 19 They took and brought him before the High Council, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 Some of the things we are hearing from you strike us as strange, and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners living there used to spend their spare time talking or hearing about the latest intellectual fads.)

      22 Sha’ul stood up in the Council meeting and said, “Men of Athens: I see how very religious you are in every way! 23 For as I was walking around, looking at your shrines,
      I even found an altar which had been inscribed, ‘To An Unknown God.’ So, the one whom you are already worshipping in ignorance — this is the one I proclaim to you.

      24 “The God who made the universe and everything in it, and who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in man-made temples; 25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he lacked something; since it is he himself who gives life and breath and everything to everyone.

      26 “From one man he made every nation living on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the limits of their territories and the periods when they would flourish. 27 God did this so that people would look for him and perhaps reach out and find him although in fact, he is not far from each one of us, 28 ‘for in him we live and move and exist.’ Indeed, as some of the poets among you have said, ‘We are actually his children.’ 29 So, since we are children of God, we shouldn’t suppose that God’s essence resembles gold, silver or stone shaped by human technique and imagination.

      30 “In the past, God overlooked such ignorance; but now he is commanding all people everywhere to turn to him from their sins. 31 For he has set a Day when he will judge the inhabited world, and do it justly, by means of a man whom he has designated. And he has given public proof of it by resurrecting this man from the dead.”

      32 At the mention of a resurrection of dead people, some began to scoff; while others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33 So Sha’ul left the meeting. 34 But some men stayed with him and came to trust, including the High Council member Dionysius; there was also a woman named Damaris; and others came to trust along with them.

    3. #33
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      768
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      4,643
      CH Challenge
      54
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      4,026
      Level
      20
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      16.77%
      Rep Power
      110
      ================================================== ============================================

      This is a totally off-topic attempt at humour. Humour only – no undercurrents. I did not know where else to post it.

      ================================================== ============================================

      pinacled’s status is given as: “A graphic novel coming soon”.

      My question is: "Will the graphic novel contain any novel graphics?"


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    4. Likes MoreCoffee liked this post
    5. #34
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      768
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      4,643
      CH Challenge
      54
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      4,026
      Level
      20
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      16.77%
      Rep Power
      110
      ================================================== ============================================

      Josiah in Post #1 (re Adam and Eve and the Fall of mankind):
      I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.
      We have seen the word “mystery” used a lot in CH.

      The problem is that that word “mystery” can be conveniently used (and often is) as a cop out – an excuse for not finding out what the Bible says on a matter, or for not acknowledging what the Bible does say when that revealed knowledge is inconvenient.

      Let’s see what the Bible itself has to say about “mystery”. The Greek word “musterion” also means “secret”.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Mark 4:11. The mystery of the kingdom of God (both visible and invisible, warts and all, we understand) is to be understood by True Christians.
      Romans 11:25. The former secret that gentiles would replace pre-qualified Israelites in the church, was revealed.
      Romans 11:25. However, Israel will be restored once a condition relating to those gentiles is fulfilled.
      Romans 16:25. The mystery of the Gospel, as taught by the apostles, had been revealed. (See 1 Corinthians 1:17-25)
      1 Corinthians 2:7. That mystery is understood (only) by True Christians. (See 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
      1 Corinthians 15:21. Jesus will return while some True Christians are still alive. (See 1 Thessalonians 3:13-18)

      To save space: God will establish a unified kingdom via Christ (Ephesians 1:9); Gentiles would become fellow-heirs (Ephesians 3:3-9); the marriage relationship was (and still is) a type (picture, model) of Christ and His church (Ephesians 5:32); the Gospel is no longer a mystery (Ephesians 6:19); gentiles would know the riches of God’s glory ( Christ in you, the hope of glory) (Colossians 1:26-27); the mystery of Christ is being proclaimed (Colossians 4:3); a mystery of iniquity was already observable at work, and would be revealed once an existing control factor was removed; potential identification was made by some early church writers, and possibly hinted at in 2 Timothy 1:17 – why didn’t the local church tell Onesiphorus where Paul was? – and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. (2 Thessalonians 2:7); the mystery of the faith was known (see Hebrews 6:1-2) (1 Timothy 3:9); the mystery of godliness was revealed in the example of Jesus (1 Timothy 3:16). Even the symbolic mysteries in the book of Revelation are explained.

      So there is no more mystery. No mystery remains. All has been revealed with respect to God’s purposes and the Church (the True and the Visible) in our time. The Bible speaks of no on-going mystery in that context.

      But will that discourage the use of “mystery” as a cop-out, by those who rely on cop-outs to shield their beliefs?


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    6. #35
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Girding loins for the battle.
       
      Mood:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,153
      CH Cash
      20,415
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      43,607
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      24.54%
      Rep Power
      681
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      This question was presented to our resident pastor, who posted this:

      <quote from a pastor>

      I largely agree....

      Although PERSONALLY, I'm pretty open to an allegorical "spin" on this.

      ONE of the things that leads me to that possibility is the very names "ADAM" and "EVE".

      I think it is POSSIBLE to "read" this as an affirmation that mankind has "fallen" and is sinful.

      I'd "buy" that completely except I agree with Pastor Richart, that DOES seem to cause a problem with the point of Saint Paul in his letters of Christ as the NEW Adam, the UN-Adam. IF a literal individual person by the moniker of "Adam" did not exist and this "Fall" did not literally happen, that DOES seem to generate some "problems" with some of Paul's points.....

      On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

      I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.



      - Josiah.
      I do not know if the story is about exactly two people from whom the whole of humanity are descended. It could be. If read at face value it seems possible. But it also looks like the creation story is not like prose we'd expect in a report of historical events. The days of creation has a litany like feel with the repeated words There was evening and there was morning: the <insert ordinal number here> day. and the count of six creation activity days and one rest day as the seventh day may have significance as either the source of the seven day week (as the story itself appears to suggest when read in conjunction with Exodus 20) or as a reflection of the seven day week that Israel had enshrined in the Law (when read in conjunction with Deuteronomy 5). The story of Adam and Eve given in chapter two is interesting but appears somewhat different from the one near the end of chapter one. And the story of the fall in chapter three has a snake that talks to Eve which is unusual too. What to make of these things is a cause of considerable debate and always has been among both Jews and Christians and maybe even among Islamic scholars too. So it seems to me that the story looks like it may be 'literal' but it has signs of not being so too.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    7. #36
      TurtleHare's Avatar
      TurtleHare is offline Prodigy Member
      Yoyo
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2015
      Posts
      995
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      2,715
      CH Challenge
      115
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (5,719 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      7,531
      Level
      26
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      42.75%
      Rep Power
      222
      There's way too many strange things to believe in the bible so why are y'all believing any of it at all then, huh?
      If you want to rile people up then go to a Christian site and give God ALL the glory for your salvation.

    8. Likes atpollard liked this post
    9. #37
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      1,457
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      7,135
      CH Challenge
      352
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      5,191
      Level
      22
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      51.75%
      Rep Power
      113
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      This question was presented to our resident pastor, who posted this:




      I largely agree....

      Although PERSONALLY, I'm pretty open to an allegorical "spin" on this.

      ONE of the things that leads me to that possibility is the very names "ADAM" and "EVE".

      I think it is POSSIBLE to "read" this as an affirmation that mankind has "fallen" and is sinful.

      I'd "buy" that completely except I agree with Pastor Richart, that DOES seem to cause a problem with the point of Saint Paul in his letters of Christ as the NEW Adam, the UN-Adam. IF a literal individual person by the moniker of "Adam" did not exist and this "Fall" did not literally happen, that DOES seem to generate some "problems" with some of Paul's points.....

      On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

      I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.

      - Josiah.
      The major thing to remember is that Adam and Eve were not created fallen, nor had creation fallen with them...

      So we do not know, as born under death in Adam, what an un-fallen life IS...

      Nor do we perceive a creation that is as it was prior to the Fall...

      We do not know what "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil" might actually mean in an unfallen creation in the Garden of our Lord...

      So we should be careful not to dumb it down with words like literal, allegory or analogy...

      Nor should we insist at all in understanding it intellectually...

      Better to enter the Mystery of the Faith in purity of heart...

      It will be revealed when God in His Good Time decides we are ready for that revelation...

      Arsenios

    10. Likes psalms 91 liked this post
    11. #38
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Girding loins for the battle.
       
      Mood:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,153
      CH Cash
      20,415
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      43,607
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      24.54%
      Rep Power
      681
      Quote Originally Posted by TurtleHare View Post
      There's way too many strange things to believe in the bible so why are y'all believing any of it at all then, huh?
      Because if we do not believe it then how can we ever make the important things come true such as justice, mercy, truth, and compassion?
      Last edited by MoreCoffee; 09-03-2018 at 10:59 PM.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    12. #39
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      1,457
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      7,135
      CH Challenge
      352
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      5,191
      Level
      22
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      51.75%
      Rep Power
      113
      Quote Originally Posted by TurtleHare View Post
      There's way too many strange things to believe in the bible...
      so why are y'all believing any of it at all then, huh?
      When you have met with Truth,
      you know that it is not the Bible that is in question,
      but our fallen,
      and dare I say rationally deductive,
      understanding,
      that is in question...
      Understanding doesn't all come at once...

      Arsenios

    13. Likes psalms 91 liked this post
    14. #40
      TurtleHare's Avatar
      TurtleHare is offline Prodigy Member
      Yoyo
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2015
      Posts
      995
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      2,715
      CH Challenge
      115
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (5,719 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      7,531
      Level
      26
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      42.75%
      Rep Power
      222
      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      When you have met with Truth,
      you know that it is not the Bible that is in question,
      but our fallen,
      and dare I say rationally deductive,
      understanding,
      that is in question...
      Understanding doesn't all come at once...

      Arsenios
      That's why by faith is so important instead of by works.
      If you want to rile people up then go to a Christian site and give God ALL the glory for your salvation.

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •