• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
    Results 1 to 10 of 33

    Christian Theology - Thread: Is the Account of Adam and Eve LITERAL?

    1. #1
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,084
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      117,546
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      61,499
      Level
      61
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      78.04%
      Rep Power
      846

      Is the Account of Adam and Eve LITERAL?

      This question was presented to our resident pastor, who posted this:

      Attention: Pastor Rickert has emailed his response and I will now copy and paste it here through this account:


      May the risen Lord be with you



      It is true that the Bible is not opposed to allegory (Galatians 4:24) and we have examples of individuals using it in the Old Testament (Judges 9:7-15) so it is not just a New Testament thing. However, in the case of Genesis 1-3, the text presents the information as historical facts. If you wish to interpret it as if Moses was writing an allegory, then one should ask how Moses intended the allegory to be understood (at least if one wants to be textual). Certainly Moses would have no problem with God creating Adam and Eve, so there is no reason to assume he wanted it to be understood as an allegory. So, just the plain reading of the text, and how we understand the beliefs of people during the days of Moses, leads us to think in terms of historical facts.



      One of the big problems (but certainly not the only one) with reinterpreting Adam and Eve in some allegorical fashion is the negative impact it has on the message of salvation. The Fall ushers in our need for a Savior. How do you explain sin and our need without the Fall. This often leads to some sort of works-righteousness solution to sin. Also, what do you do with the first promise of the Messiah (Genesis 3:15). Also, how do you handle the numerous other Biblical references to Adam and Eve that take the account as historical? How to we understand Jesus as the “Second Adam” (1 Corinthians 15:45-49) if there was no first Adam? To be honest, those I’ve met who struggle with the history of Adam and Eve, also struggle with being sinners, being in need of a Savior, the resurrection of the body, as well as the Divine inspiration of the Bible in general.



      Other than not liking to think of ourselves as sinners in need of a Savior, other reasons I’ve heard for rejecting the historical nature of Genesis 1-3 is that it does not well harmonize with modern science, and science is taken as the final authority. Some reject it because they, a priori, reject the idea that God interacts with creation. One view takes contemporary science as the ultimate authority and the other takes personal opinion as the ultimate authority (God must conform to my opinion). According to the Bible, the Triune God is the ultimate authority, not fallen humanity.



      Blessings in the Name of the Second Adam

      Pastor Rickert


      .

      I largely agree....

      Although PERSONALLY, I'm pretty open to an allegorical "spin" on this.

      ONE of the things that leads me to that possibility is the very names "ADAM" and "EVE".

      I think it is POSSIBLE to "read" this as an affirmation that mankind has "fallen" and is sinful.

      I'd "buy" that completely except I agree with Pastor Richart, that DOES seem to cause a problem with the point of Saint Paul in his letters of Christ as the NEW Adam, the UN-Adam. IF a literal individual person by the moniker of "Adam" did not exist and this "Fall" did not literally happen, that DOES seem to generate some "problems" with some of Paul's points.....

      On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

      I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.



      - Josiah.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    2. Likes Confessional Lutheran liked this post
    3. #2
      Confessional Lutheran's Avatar
      Confessional Lutheran is offline Prodigy Member
      44
      Divorced
      John 15:5
       
      Mood:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Location
      Northern Virginia
      Posts
      719
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,213
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,198
      Level
      30
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      7.48%
      Rep Power
      221
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      This question was presented to our resident pastor, who posted this:




      I largely agree....

      Although PERSONALLY, I'm pretty open to an allegorical "spin" on this.

      ONE of the things that leads me to that possibility is the very names "ADAM" and "EVE".

      I think it is POSSIBLE to "read" this as an affirmation that mankind has "fallen" and is sinful.

      I'd "buy" that completely except I agree with Pastor Richart, that DOES seem to cause a problem with the point of Saint Paul in his letters of Christ as the NEW Adam, the UN-Adam. IF a literal individual person by the moniker of "Adam" did not exist and this "Fall" did not literally happen, that DOES seem to generate some "problems" with some of Paul's points.....

      On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

      I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.



      - Josiah.
      I believe in the literal truth of the account of Adam and Eve, simply because it ties in so seamlessly with the rest of Holy Scripture. Adam and Eve ate a forbidden fruit, death came into the world and Jesus countered that when He came to earth. Allegories are fine, but when it comes to Sacred Scripture, I think one should tread carefully. This is God's revelation of Himself to us in Holy Writ. Pull one thread and the whole fabric might unravel. Always beware of trying to apply human reason to Sacred Scripture. Happy Easter.

    4. Likes RichWh1 liked this post
    5. #3
      JRT is offline Rookie Member
      75
      Married
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2016
      Posts
      97
      Country
      Canada
      CH Cash
      682
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      843
      Level
      10
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      14.9%
      Rep Power
      23
      A very great deal of scripture is wide open to interpretation. As a Christian of over 70 years and also a retired scientist, I have no problem in regarding Genesis as allegorical.

      I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

      Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a real world where there was real good and evil.

      In the words of John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."

    6. Likes Confessional Lutheran liked this post
    7. #4
      jsimms435's Avatar
      jsimms435 is offline Veteran Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,429
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,113
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      14,076
      Level
      34
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      43.03%
      Rep Power
      414
      I don't see any reason to think that Adam and Eve weren't literal people who lived and died on the earth. Have you ever noticed how Adam lived over 900 years and we literally know about 15 minutes of his whole life? What type of person he was, what did he do most of the day. Did he sing, dance, write, farm? It doesn't say

    8. Likes Confessional Lutheran liked this post
    9. #5
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      3,471
      CH Cash
      14,661
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      14,213
      Level
      34
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      56.87%
      Rep Power
      368
      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      I don't see any reason to think that Adam and Eve weren't literal people who lived and died on the earth. Have you ever noticed how Adam lived over 900 years and we literally know about 15 minutes of his whole life? What type of person he was, what did he do most of the day. Did he sing, dance, write, farm? It doesn't say
      We know this. God gave a rule to Adam and Eve. They disobeyed and the holy relationship with their Creator was broken. Corruption of the human nature brought a need for a redeemer. That Redeemer is God, himself, in the person of Jesus.
      There is no need to over think this truth. There is no need to try reconcile it with scientific reasoning. God provided this information for us so we might recognize our own corruption and by His grace be redeemed by the atoning blood of Christ Jesus.
      Rebels will come up with sophisticated reasons to remain in rebellion and not bow their knee to the Sovereign King. Even Christians tend to look for ways to make God an advisor to them rather than accept that He is King and we are saved solely by His mercy and grace.

    10. #6
      psalms 91's Avatar
      psalms 91 is offline Silver Member
      Moderator
      Supporting Member
      69
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Pa
      Posts
      12,164
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      4,037
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (2,300,425 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      51,258
      Level
      57
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      69.8%
      Rep Power
      560
      Just another example of trying to complicate the simple message of God. It is simple, so simple that those with great inntelects try to complicate things. People dont care about all the ins and outs who are lost but they do embrace the siomple message of salvation if presented without all the rest. It is sad that people take the message of Jesus and try to complicate it and in the process make people twice the child of hell that they were
      Isaiah 40:31

    11. Likes Confessional Lutheran liked this post
    12. #7
      jsimms435's Avatar
      jsimms435 is offline Veteran Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,429
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,113
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      14,076
      Level
      34
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      43.03%
      Rep Power
      414
      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      We know this. God gave a rule to Adam and Eve. They disobeyed and the holy relationship with their Creator was broken. Corruption of the human nature brought a need for a redeemer. That Redeemer is God, himself, in the person of Jesus.
      There is no need to over think this truth. There is no need to try reconcile it with scientific reasoning. God provided this information for us so we might recognize our own corruption and by His grace be redeemed by the atoning blood of Christ Jesus.
      Rebels will come up with sophisticated reasons to remain in rebellion and not bow their knee to the Sovereign King. Even Christians tend to look for ways to make God an advisor to them rather than accept that He is King and we are saved solely by His mercy and grace.
      True

    13. #8
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
      56
      Married
      Mood:
      Sad
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Posts
      802
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,280
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (10,500 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      6,122
      Level
      24
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      18.13%
      Rep Power
      192
      I remember being a very young child and being fascinated with Ancient Egypt and Greece and Rome. I remember reading that it was common knowledge that the Egyptians invented the spoked wheel that gave them an advantage in chariot technology over their solid-wheeled neighbors. I remember that archeologists all accepted as true that iron was introduced with the early Romans, granting them an advantage over the Bronze wielding Greeks. Every serious archeologist and historian KNEW that the Biblical account of the Hittites with iron rimmed chariot wheels predating the Egyptians was simply nonsense.

      Then one day archeologists discovered the ruins of the Hittite civilization with iron rimmed chariots just like the Bible said.
      I remember that discovery and am reluctant to bet against scripture on any historic point. Six literal days of creation don’t really agree with what I know of geology, but my money is still on six literal days.

    14. Likes Confessional Lutheran, Lämmchen liked this post
    15. #9
      Confessional Lutheran's Avatar
      Confessional Lutheran is offline Prodigy Member
      44
      Divorced
      John 15:5
       
      Mood:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Location
      Northern Virginia
      Posts
      719
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,213
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,198
      Level
      30
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      7.48%
      Rep Power
      221
      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      I remember being a very young child and being fascinated with Ancient Egypt and Greece and Rome. I remember reading that it was common knowledge that the Egyptians invented the spoked wheel that gave them an advantage in chariot technology over their solid-wheeled neighbors. I remember that archeologists all accepted as true that iron was introduced with the early Romans, granting them an advantage over the Bronze wielding Greeks. Every serious archeologist and historian KNEW that the Biblical account of the Hittites with iron rimmed chariot wheels predating the Egyptians was simply nonsense.

      Then one day archeologists discovered the ruins of the Hittite civilization with iron rimmed chariots just like the Bible said.
      I remember that discovery and am reluctant to bet against scripture on any historic point. Six literal days of creation don’t really agree with what I know of geology, but my money is still on six literal days.
      Science will undoubtedly prove you and the Bible right. I find it rather amusing that as science advances, we find more and more Biblical truth being shown to be correct, while secular theories drop by the wayside. Lest anybody forget, the Theory of Evolution is still a theory, not a proven Law, such as gravity. One day, that theory will be disproven as well. So, when we ( as a species) learn in a couple of millennia that the Scriptures have been true all along and all our research has done is proven that Truth, the faith of our descendants will finally be exonerated. Y- DNA and Mitochondrial DNA have shown that we are a global family, connected over the centuries to one common couple. Hey, the story of Adam and Eve was recorded by Moses four thousand years or so ago, so this hard- won, scientifically studied truth was already available to the faithful in Holy Writ. There will be other truths proven, no doubt.
      Last edited by Confessional Lutheran; 04-18-2018 at 08:36 AM. Reason: Gotta add the " ful" for that sentence to make sense.

    16. Likes DHoffmann, Lämmchen, atpollard, roasthawg liked this post
    17. #10
      kiwimac's Avatar
      kiwimac is offline Rookie Member
      57
      Married
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2016
      Location
      Deepest, darkest NZ
      Posts
      72
      Country
      New Zealand
      CH Cash
      25,774
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      562
      Level
      8
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      46.54%
      Rep Power
      15
      Genesis 1 & 2 and the story of Adam and Eve are allegory rather than actual historical truth.

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •