Justification

Lämmchen said:

I think what Menno might not have seen and maybe I'm wrong myself in thinking EO and RC believe this but the works you are doing are those that by God's grace He has given to you to do because of Christ and that is how it connects to justification?

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To repent from sin is indeed a work, but it is the person who fundamentally, in this life, chooses to do so... How efficacious he or she may be in doing so is God's... Even will power... The prayer: "Lord, help me to be willing to do good" is a prayer that seeks what is good by turning from evil... And God will in response gradually help you to be willing to do good... This is pretty fundamental... The basic work of repentance from dead works and calling on the Name of the Lord...

But the "greater works than these" works which Christ prophesied for us are in fact the works of Christ Himself IN us...

Yet it is God Who Justifies/makes Righteous... When we are Baptized into Christ, we are then members of His Body, and Christ in His Body overcame the world in absolute obedience to the Father... So in Baptism we are made righteous... And all too often, we squander that Righteousness which is Christ Himself on carnal and fallen concerns... Or we begin with patience and long-suffereing to run the race set out before us, overcoming demonic powers and principalities, more and more-so as we gather strength in overcoming small ones and then greater ones... We can do this in Christ... Apart from Christ we will fail, as Paul reported speaking as one "knowing the Law" (eg as a Levitical Jew)...

But as to your original point, nobody is saying that we justify ourselves... It is God Who justifies us, which means, in this context of repentance, He first empowers us to progressively overcome sin, and finally, He takes away the weakness we have that desires sin... "He healeth all thine infirmities..."

Arsenios

MennoSota said:

LOL, you really struggle ...

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Lord have Mercy on our Brother...

Arsenios

Arsenios said:

nobody is saying that we justify ourselves... It is God Who justifies us

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I agree. That is the Protestant position so powerfully repudiated by Catholicism.

But you are fundamentally wrong when you write, "nobody is saying that we justify ourselves." Actually, I'd estimate that MOST Christians say that, indeed, every one of my Catholic teachers not only said that but taught that as Catholic Dogma. We were taught, "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you must get yourself through it by what you do." So, how do we get into heaven? What what we do. TRUE, if pressed, those same Catholic teachers would add that WE DO it via the empowering that comes from God (a point also stressed by Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism) but then God doesn't justify, God empowers. We were taught in our Catholic classes that "God HELPS those who help themselves." Same point. We were taught that Justification is a "lifelong process of taping the grace we are offered to progressively grow more Christ like" and (just so we'd not miss the point), "grace" was defined as "the empowering and help that God offers us so that WE can get OURSELVES where WE need to get." And again, "Grace is like the 'gas' that God puts in your "tank" - but it's up to YOU to use that gas to move forward. Thus, the clear message: Justification is something WE do.... we justify OURSELVES.... WE attain it, WE achieve it, it has to do with OUR works, accomplishments, progress.

It's important to remember, too, that Luther taught that no one justifies ourselves but rather that Jesus is the sole and all-sufficient Savior (in this sense) AND HE WAS EXCOMMUNICATED FOR THAT, that was officially declared to be apostate heresy, apostasy, such a horrible teaching that the RCC chose to split itself nearly in two over this. IF the Catholic Church taught that no one justifies themselves then they would have made Luther a Saint, not repudiated him as an apostate heretic for saying that.

See posts 2, 3 and 8.

The prayer: "Lord, help me to be willing to do good" is a prayer that seeks what is good by turning from evil... And God will in response gradually help you to be willing to do good... This is pretty fundamental... The basic work of repentance from dead works and calling on the Name of the Lord...

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Lutherans would argue this is a prayer on the lips of CHRISTIANS, those who are spiritually alive and with the Holy Spirit (and thus is part of Sanctification, narrow). We'd argue that it is NOT something done by the Dead who reject the Lord, deny Christ, and won't call on the Name of the One they don't know, deny and repudiate, which is a work that results in the Dead becoming alive (its not a part of Justification, narrow)


See posts 2, 3, 8 and 304



Blessings on your Easter season...



- Josiah



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Josiah said:

I agree. That is the Protestant position so powerfully repudiated by Catholicism.

But you are fundamentally wrong when you write, "nobody is saying that we justify ourselves." Actually, I'd estimate that MOST Christians say that, indeed, every one of my Catholic teachers not only said that but taught that as Catholic Dogma. We were taught, "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you must get yourself through it by what you do." So, how do we get into heaven? What what we do. TRUE, if pressed, those same Catholic teachers would add that WE DO it via the empowering that comes from God (a point also stressed by Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism) but then God doesn't justify, God empowers. We were taught in our Catholic classes that "God HELPS those who help themselves." Same point. We were taught that Justification is a "lifelong process of taping the grace we are offered to progressively grow more Christ like" and (just so we'd not miss the point), "grace" was defined as "the empowering and help that God offers us so that WE can get OURSELVES where WE need to get." And again, "Grace is like the 'gas' that God puts in your "tank" - but it's up to YOU to use that gas to move forward. Thus, the clear message: Justification is something WE do.... we justify OURSELVES.... WE attain it, WE achieve it, it has to do with OUR works, accomplishments, progress.

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A marvelous Mystery of two paradoxical apperceptions:

1) God is all powerful...
2) Man chooses...

So that every man is totally responsible for his Salvation...
And man has No power to give himself Salvation...

Each person has total responsibility and no Power but God...

Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of God is here and now...

You see, God's desire for our Salvation is not some variable...
But each person's desires sure are (variable)...

So WE, you and I, are the variables, not God...
What we DO matters utterly...

In the light of the Orthodox Faith, the Latin Church has many issues, but they are an Apostolic Church, and I do not think you will find them ever saying that man justifies of saves himself by his works...

Instead they say that God justifies man according to his works - They had better say this!
What you DO is totally determinative - And God gives the determination... Now or later...

Embrace evil for one judgement from God...
Embrace repentance for the other one...

The choice is, in this fallen life
(A life that is death),
the possession of each person,
regardless of their station...


Arsenios

MoreCoffee said:

From a Catholic perspective it is ... God alone saves
and human beings respond as they are enabled by God's grace.

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So two questions:
1: What is the Call of God? [vis a vis Salvation and its human response]
2: What is the initiating role of repentance unto Salvation...

Because the first word of the Gospel is: "Be ye repenting..."
And this because the Kingdom of Heaven is here and now...
And IF this means that our response to the Gospel is repentance
And that repentance is unto entry into the Kingdom of Heaven...
And IF that Salvation IS entry into the Kingdom of Heaven...
THEN the initial repentance is not BY our response to Salvation,
but is instead for the sake of attaining it...

Arsenios

Arsenios said:

A marvelous Mystery of two paradoxical apperceptions:

1) God is all powerful...
2) Man chooses...

So that every man is totally responsible for his Salvation...
And man has No power to give himself Salvation...

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From a PROTESTANT perspective (well, at least Lutheran), there certainly and undeniably is MYSTERY (a favorite word in Lutheran theology) since we simply don't comprehend all in HOW God does what He does (and unlike some Protestants, we don't theorize). BUT this is important: Salvation (and by that I mean Justification in the narrow sense of COMING to spiritual life, BECOMING a child of God, the RECEIVING of the gift of faith, the CHANGED relationship with God, the personal COMING of the Holy Spirit) is God's doing. We hold that Jesus is the Savior and thus Jesus does the saving (in this sense). That's what Luther said - and yes, he was officially excommunicated for it; this teaching declared apostate heresy. See posts 2,3, 8 and 304.


IF it is true that Jesus saves no one but rather each saves himself/herself by adequately "tapping into" the grace/empowering/help that God extends (as I was taught in my Catholic years), then Protestants see that as self saving self albeit with divine help (which is of course the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism). We believe that Jesus is the Savior not simply a Helper. We believe that the Holy Spirit is the Author and GIVER of Life, not simply an offerer of life. We believe that God GIVES life to the dead, not that the dead give the dead life.


Now, IMMEDIATELY thereupon (and of course, God has no time), we are called and empowered to LIVE the LIFE we were given, to reflect the love we received, to grow more Christ-like. This we call "Sanctification" (or "discipleship" or simply "Christian living") is a synergist, progressive process that we believe is never fully achieved - so that forgivness continues to be needed, we continue to live in His mercy as well as strength. We believe that the progress we make is important and rewarded in heaven. On the other hand, a life lived in "cheap grace" (as we call it) can ruin and even destroy the gift of faith (we don't accept "Once Saved ALWAYS Saved"). Justification and Sanctification are inseparable and critical, just not identical.

Each person has total responsibility and no Power but God...

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From a Protestant perspective, this is not something we'd say. YES, on the one hand, all ARE called to faith and life. But since NONE can do that (the Law only condemning), this must be a gift. "The gift of God" the Bible calls it. "An inheritance" the BIble says. "Not because of our works." Again, we affirm that the HOLY SPIRIT (not each self) is the Lord and Giver of Life, that JESUS (not each self) is the Savior.

Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of God is here and now...

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.... although again, "kai" doesn't mandate (or even imply) chronological sequence. YES, a LOT of things are associated with Justification - but that doesn't mean they must happen in a certain chronological order OR that Jesus was actually in vain because Justification is the result of the hoops WE jump through in precisely the right chronological sequence. There is MYSTERY here... but we must not replace the mystery with a mandate that destroys the Christian Gospel that Jesus is the Savior.

You see, God's desire for our Salvation is not some variable...

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Absolutely. All but a few radical Calvinists would agree with this.

But each person's desires sure are (variable)...

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I disagree. The Dead desire nothing. The unregenerate will nothing spiritual. The enemy of God are enemies of God. If our hearts turn toward God, then God must turn them... God must change our heart and will.

From the Protestant perspective, we are not justified by the good work of turning to God (making Jesus irrelevant and making self the Savior). No one is saying that OUR will is irrelevant to justification, only that OUR will is not what Justifies - so that the Incarnation, the Cross, the Resurrection are in vain because Dead save themselves by believing (rather than denying) God, by loving (rather than being enemies of God), and by the Good Work of "turning to God." We believe that Jesus is the Savior (in this sense). Our will is somehow involved in how HE does this, but it's NOT a matter of WE doing it (even if it is with Help). We believe that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of Life, not self. The Lord CHANGES our heart and will..... placing in us life and faith.... which makes our will totally different. Again, Lutherans would stress there is MYSTERY here.... but removing the mystery by removing the Incarnation - Cross - Resurrection may remove mystery but it also removes Christ as the Savior.

What we DO matters utterly...

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From the Protestant perspective, what the Dead do does matter - it condemns them.

If some Dead can save themselves (in whole or in part) then Jesus is a joke, a waste of time, "in vain" the Bible says. Then Jesus is not the Savior and Jesus saves no one. And the Holy Spirit is NOT the Lord and GIVER of Life. And we ARE saved by our works and according to what we do (not Jesus' works, not Jesus' Incarnation, not Jesus' Cross, not Jesus' Resurrection). Jesus AT BEST might be PART Savior (the part that actually saves no one) but each dead person would also be PART Savior (the part that actually matters and accomplishes something).

Now, if the "we" in your statement means "Christians" then of course, Protestants agree - but that's another issue for another day and thread, this one is about Justification.

God justifies man according to his works - They had better say this!

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Luther said God justifies man according to Christ's works. He was excommunicated for it. What all my Catholic teachers taught us is that God justifies man according to his own works. "God HELPS those who help THEMSELVES." "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through the gate by what you do."

If the Dead are justified by his own works, then the Savior is self. And Jesus was in vain. And Christianity is wrong (and we should check out Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism).



See posts 2, 3 and 8. The Protestant perspective here is clear. And remember that after YEARS of very careful study and personal discussions with Luther and the "Lutheran Church Fathers," the very best and most learned of Catholic theologians declared the Lutheran perspective to be apostate heresy of the worse kind, excommunicated Luther over THIS, and split itself nearly in two over THIS - the view that Jesus is the Savior, that God justifies us because of what CHRIST did/does. And remember: since Luther, the writings of Luther and the teachings of the Lutheran Fathers when to ENORMOUS length to make it absolutely CLEAR what we mean by "justify" in this context, there is no possibility of their simply misunderstanding for 500 years. WHATEVER the RCC view is, it MUST be radically different than the Lutheran one that Jesus is the Savior, that we are justified (narrow) in view of what Jesus did.



I hope that helps.



- Josiah




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Hebrews 12: 26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29. For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 13: 1. Let brotherly love continue. 2. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3. Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. 4. Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 5. Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6. So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. 7. Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. 16. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

(Seems pertinent to salvation to me; that is, those works that we are given to do by the will and grace of GOD.)


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Sadly, for the Roman faith may not be the faith of scripture, but instead a perversion pointing many toward hell.

MoreCoffee said:

Brother MennoSota, your posts make me rejoice in the Catholic faith.

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MennoSota said:

Sadly, for the Roman faith may not be the faith of scripture, but instead a perversion pointing many toward hell.

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How did you come up with that assumption?

DHoffmann said:

How did you come up with that assumption?

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I read their teaching of salvation by works and I listen to their leaders. Their gospel is similar to the one that Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians. Martin Luther recognized it as he read Galatians and Romans. He saw how far astray Rome had gone and he called for reform. Instead, Rome solidified their false gospel at the Council of Trent.

MoreCoffee said:

Yes brother popsthebuilder, those verses are pertinent to God's saving work in human beings. Good works are good because God gives them for Christians to live by. No one does good works and thereby earns salvation but everyone who receives life, love, and faith from God does good works. It is like the breath that Adam received at his creation. God breathed the breath (spirit) of life into his nostrils and Adam thereby became a living soul. So it is with good works, God gives them to the faithful to do and in doing them they have become living Christians.

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See Menno, they (Catholics) agree with your understanding
Group hug everyone!

*closes thread

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MoreCoffee said:

Yes brother popsthebuilder, those verses are pertinent to God's saving work in human beings. Good works are good because God gives them for Christians to live by.

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Agreed. Thus, our works have nothing to do with Justification. Since CHRISTIANS are to do them, they are not what makes one become a Christian. Luther embraced OUR good works at least as much (IMO far more) than the RCC 500 years ago or today, agreed with your statement very strongly. He just disagreed that OUR good works is what causes us to be given faith/life/justification - he regarded Jesus as the Savior and thus HIS works save (in the sense of justification, narrow). He was excommunicated for that stance, his view declared anathema.

No one does good works and thereby earns salvation but everyone who receives life, love, and faith from God does good works. It is like the breath that Adam received at his creation. God breathed the breath (spirit) of life into his nostrils and Adam thereby became a living soul. So it is with good works, God gives them to the faithful to do and in doing them they have become living Christians.

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EXCELLENT conveying of the Lutheran position. Be careful, in Catholicism, it's apostate heresy. I don't think the RCC would have so powerfully declared something apostate heresy and split itself nearly in two over something it knew was correct (I can't believe ANY denomination would EVER do that), it declared what it did because it saw this view as an extremely dangerous and heretical bit of apostasy, necessitating this second largest split it ever caused to itself. But as a Lutheran, I agree with what you posted (even with the way you state it) - a PROFOUNDLY Lutheran view! Of course, as we all know, your denomination repudiated it (so you might want to reconsider your stance or your Catholicism).


See posts 2, 3 and 8. See the words you state in this quote from you. THAT'S the Lutheran position. For decades, your denomination's VERY BEST scholars and theologians spoke with Luther and other "Lutheran Fathers" and read their works where they stated that in JUSTIFICATION (narrow), Jesus is the Savior and thus it is by HIS works that we are saved (in this sense) - NOT OURS, Jesus in no sense is just a HELPER or POSSIBILITY MAKER as our Catholic teachers taught us but rather THE only, all-sufficient SAVIOR who actually SAVES; that the Holy Spirit is the GIVER of Life (not offerer of Life but it's up to the dead to breath such into self). Lutherans went to enormous lengths to define terms, to be absolutely clear what they meant by "Justification" so there is no possibility of misunderstanding or miscommunicating. These highly educated and informed and careful Catholic scholars knew the Lutheran position ("Jesus is the Savior" "The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life" No one earns salvation - in whole or in part, empowered by God or otherwise - the Savior GIVES it.). Those outstanding Catholic scholars KNEW the Lutheran position perfectly - and denounced it in the very boldest way possible, declaring it apostate heresy, anathematizing it. So, the actual Catholic position MUST be radically DIFFERENT - or else the Catholic Church is also teaching apostate heresy and needs to anathematize and excommunicate itself over the issue of Justification (narrow), it should be nearly impossible for you (as a Catholic) to post on this topic and be in absolute total agreement with Lutheranism unless you are actually conveying something abhorrent in Catholicism.



Thank you.


- Josiah




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Thank you for your words

MoreCoffee said:

Yes brother popsthebuilder, those verses are pertinent to God's saving work in human beings. Good works are good because God gives them for Christians to live by. No one does good works and thereby earns salvation but everyone who receives life, love, and faith from God does good works. It is like the breath that Adam received at his creation. God breathed the breath (spirit) of life into his nostrils and Adam thereby became a living soul. So it is with good works, God gives them to the faithful to do and in doing them they have become living Christians.

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Seems like the very desire for repentance and sincere hope on the LORD can .....uhm......be some sort of prerequisite......(i'm sorry; I'm not trying to speak uhm..... heretically.....i'm only saying that this is what it seems like to me.) Does anyone know if this is at all scriptural? References would be great.

(i'm sorry again; I am going to briefly talk about myself )

I thought I was atheist....and was surely for some time......but I recall calling out .....really sincerely praying for help/ strength/ direction in a time of most dire need or feeling of inability to change or repent. (Granted at this time I didn't know what the word repent meant.) There is no doubt in my mind that GOD was always there.....and I know believing comes from hearing....but must one have a receptive heart first......one that desires repentance and the help of GOD? one who witnesses there own seeming inability to turn from what is knowingly wrong and or evil?

I'm asking because so many here seem to have a firm understanding of scripture.

Josiah said:

Agreed. Thus, our works have nothing to do with Justification. Since CHRISTIANS are to do them, they are not what makes one become a Christian. Luther embraced OUR good works at least as much (IMO far more) than the RCC 500 years ago or today, agreed with your statement very strongly. He just disagreed that OUR good works is what causes us to be given faith/life/justification - he regarded Jesus as the Savior and thus HIS works save (in the sense of justification, narrow). He was excommunicated for that stance, his view declared anathema.






EXCELLENT conveying of the Lutheran position. Be careful, in Catholicism, it's apostate heresy. I don't think the RCC would have so powerfully declared something apostate heresy and split itself nearly in two over something it knew was correct (I can't believe ANY denomination would EVER do that), it declared what it did because it saw this view as an extremely dangerous and heretical bit of apostasy, necessitating this second largest split it ever caused to itself. But as a Lutheran, I agree with what you posted (even with the way you state it) - a PROFOUNDLY Lutheran view! Of course, as we all know, your denomination repudiated it (so you might want to reconsider your stance or your Catholicism).


See posts 2, 3 and 8. See the words you state in this quote from you. THAT'S the Lutheran position. For decades, your denomination's VERY BEST scholars and theologians spoke with Luther and other "Lutheran Fathers" and read their works where they stated that in JUSTIFICATION (narrow), Jesus is the Savior and thus it is by HIS works that we are saved (in this sense) - NOT OURS, Jesus in no sense is just a HELPER or POSSIBILITY MAKER as our Catholic teachers taught us but rather THE only, all-sufficient SAVIOR who actually SAVES; that the Holy Spirit is the GIVER of Life (not offerer of Life but it's up to the dead to breath such into self). Lutherans went to enormous lengths to define terms, to be absolutely clear what they meant by "Justification" so there is no possibility of misunderstanding or miscommunicating. These highly educated and informed and careful Catholic scholars knew the Lutheran position ("Jesus is the Savior" "The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life" No one earns salvation - in whole or in part, empowered by God or otherwise - the Savior GIVES it.). Those outstanding Catholic scholars KNEW the Lutheran position perfectly - and denounced it in the very boldest way possible, declaring it apostate heresy, anathematizing it. So, the actual Catholic position MUST be radically DIFFERENT - or else the Catholic Church is also teaching apostate heresy and needs to anathematize and excommunicate itself over the issue of Justification (narrow), it should be nearly impossible for you (as a Catholic) to post on this topic and be in absolute total agreement with Lutheranism unless you are actually conveying something abhorrent in Catholicism.



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

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Josiah said:

From a LUTHERAN perspective there certainly and undeniably is MYSTERY (a favorite word in Lutheran theology) since we simply don't comprehend ALL in HOW God does what He does.

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Do you understand ANY of HOW God does what He does? I truly do not think I do... I see what He does and how it works out to greater or lesser degrees, I suppose...

BUT this is important:

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You have my attention, but then you go and introduce a technical definition of Salvation as Justification narrowly understood...

Salvation

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So here is comes:

(and by that I mean Justification in the narrow sense...

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I mean, where does this come from? Not the Church of the Apostles... Not the Bible... I mean, is there somewhere in the Bible that tells us that Salvation is defined as some restricted sense of Justification?

But then you go on to describe the transformation of a person who is being transformed:

of COMING to spiritual life,
BECOMING a child of God,
the RECEIVING of the gift of faith,
the CHANGED relationship with God,
the personal COMING of the Holy Spirit)

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Now in all these we must say that God is the Agent Who causes them... As you go on to say:

is God's doing.

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So here may I ask you this?:
What is the difference between the Call of God
and the Justification of God?

Because you are describing an assortment of Spiritual events that would seem to reflect God's Great Mercy on those who love Him who are not in the Communion of the Apostolic Faith - eg These are experiences of Grace that God extends to what we may call "the Faithful outside the Apostolic Ekklesia"... iow You are describing this assortment of Spiritual events and calling them Salvation, and furthere saying that they are a specific restriction on the general sense of Justification which God gives to man... I mean, perhaps we might add some other kinds of Spiritual events to this assortment... And perhaps some might argue for an exclusion of one or several...

Can you see the problem I am having with this rendering?

I live in a simplicity of understanding... Man enters into repentance when God Calls him... And God Justifies the man who is repenting, healing him from his infirmities that give him the need to live a repentant life... Then God Glorifies the man who has repented unto blood, and in this, the man will do works as did Christ, and perhaps even more than these...

So man repents, and God Saves...

One's Christian life is the struggle to keep one's self from sin, and in this, God is Faithful and will raise him up on the last day... And some He Glorifies in this life...

So in my simple understanding, Christians live in the struggle of keeping the Faith and purity we are given in Baptism - A struggle that we continue in unto the end of our lives, keeping vigil in ourselves against sin's incursions...

And in this struggle, God justifies us as we overcome demonic powers assailing our souls...
And should we turn back to sin, God will withdraw that justification...

But you come along and say that COMING to spiritual life,
BECOMING a child of God,
the RECEIVING of the gift of faith,
having a CHANGED relationship with God,
and the personal COMING of the Holy Spirit,
And perhaps a host of other spiritual events IS Salvation which is a restricted understanding of Justification...

And I have to tell you, I cannot bring simplicity to your words...

I am unable to find the Way here...

Thank you for taking the time to lay it out...

Forgive me for being so thick...

I mean, a definition is not a list of what has been included in the bag...
It is the causal feature that gets those things tossed in the bag...
And the only thing I can see is the Grace of God...
And the Jews loved Signs (Grace)...
And hated Christ...

Arsenios