The Evangelical Dilemma

psalms 91

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Wonder if Hitler used the same reasoning in the beginning, I mean about protection from and this is what I mean about be careful because what is used on immigrants can in time be used on the population
 

tango

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Wonder if Hitler used the same reasoning in the beginning, I mean about protection from and this is what I mean about be careful because what is used on immigrants can in time be used on the population

Wow.... way to invoke Godwin's Law.

Care to address the merits or otherwise of the three scenarios I presented (or present more options), or is it just easier to compare me to Hitler?
 

Albion

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I wasn't aware I'd ever suggested turning our backs on the needy. No solution is going to be perfect - if we simply throw open the borders then we commit inexcusable negligence against those exposed to all sorts of new dangers and if we keep people in some kind of holding facility while they are processed there's a risk they will have issues while in the holding camp.

A key question is whether conditions in the holding camp are better or worse than the conditions being fled.

We may put the question into perspective by asking this...

Should the USA accept all of the worlds migrants into our country (that's a hundred million or so to begin with, plus all others who would seek the same benefit in the following years), criminal and non-criminal alike, and pay for their care, education, housing, etc.--which would impoverish and endanger our own citizens and legally-resident non-citizens?

That is really what MennoSota's line of thought is asking.

My answer is no. That is immoral on its face since it steals from those who paid for all these things and it makes our government violate the most fundamental purpose for having a government--to protect the people.
 

Albion

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tango

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We may put the question into perspective by asking this...

Should the USA accept all of the worlds migrants into our country (that's a hundred million or so to begin with, plus all others who would seek the same benefit in the following years), criminal and non-criminal alike, and pay for their care, education, housing, etc.--which would impoverish and endanger our own citizens and legally-resident non-citizens?

That is really what MennoSota's line of thought is asking.

My answer is no. That is immoral on its face since it steals from those who paid for all these things and it makes our government violate the most fundamental purpose for having a government--to protect the people.

Curiously, even throwing open the borders does little to address the call to care for the weak and the needy because there's still no additional information regarding who is actually needy.

I remember spending a long weekend in Paris, several years ago. The first morning I was there, a Saturday morning, I was horrified to see the state of some of the beggars lining the Champs-Elysees. The first one I saw was a man dressed in rags, barefoot and dirty, all but prostrate on the ground supporting himself with a stick, with his hand extended as he begged. I'm no stranger to seeing street beggars having lived in other cities but I'd never seen anything like that. But curiously, a few yards further along, was another man all but identical in appearance. And another, and another, and so on. Come Monday morning there wasn't a single beggar to be seen.

I've also personally watched street beggars in London with their hat on the ground begging for change. The contents of their hat are typically equivalent to no more than 50 cents or so. Yet if someone puts a larger coin in there (in England we have counts for one and two pounds, worth about $1.50 and $3 respectively), they wait until they think nobody is looking and remove it.

How to tell the truly needy from those just trying their luck is the tricky part. Unless the objective is simply to throw money at anyone who cares to ask for some (in which case perhaps someone could show me where I sign up, because it seems easier than working for it), some kind of processing is required.
 

psalms 91

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Wow.... way to invoke Godwin's Law.

Care to address the merits or otherwise of the three scenarios I presented (or present more options), or is it just easier to compare me to Hitler?
Way to jump to conclusions, I did not compare you to Hitler. At least this time you didnt accuse me of being off topic. Refreshing
 

tango

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Way to jump to conclusions, I did not compare you to Hitler. At least this time you didnt accuse me of being off topic. Refreshing

Your exact words were "wonder if Hitler used the same reasoning". I'm not sure how that should be interpreted, if not as a comparison to Hitler.

Besides, how about addressing the scenarios I presented? I know it takes more than a single sentence, with or without references to Hitler, but it's hard to have much of a discussion if you're not going to address the ideas.
 

psalms 91

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Your exact words were "wonder if Hitler used the same reasoning". I'm not sure how that should be interpreted, if not as a comparison to Hitler.

Besides, how about addressing the scenarios I presented? I know it takes more than a single sentence, with or without references to Hitler, but it's hard to have much of a discussion if you're not going to address the ideas.
Like it or not I addressed your post as to number two in your scenerio so there it is
 

MennoSota

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Curiously, even throwing open the borders does little to address the call to care for the weak and the needy because there's still no additional information regarding who is actually needy.

I remember spending a long weekend in Paris, several years ago. The first morning I was there, a Saturday morning, I was horrified to see the state of some of the beggars lining the Champs-Elysees. The first one I saw was a man dressed in rags, barefoot and dirty, all but prostrate on the ground supporting himself with a stick, with his hand extended as he begged. I'm no stranger to seeing street beggars having lived in other cities but I'd never seen anything like that. But curiously, a few yards further along, was another man all but identical in appearance. And another, and another, and so on. Come Monday morning there wasn't a single beggar to be seen.

I've also personally watched street beggars in London with their hat on the ground begging for change. The contents of their hat are typically equivalent to no more than 50 cents or so. Yet if someone puts a larger coin in there (in England we have counts for one and two pounds, worth about $1.50 and $3 respectively), they wait until they think nobody is looking and remove it.

How to tell the truly needy from those just trying their luck is the tricky part. Unless the objective is simply to throw money at anyone who cares to ask for some (in which case perhaps someone could show me where I sign up, because it seems easier than working for it), some kind of processing is required.
You seem to skirt the issue and essentially ask the question "who is my neighbor" to which Jesus gives an answer.
As an Evangelical what is the God honoring response to our neighbors whom God is bringing to our doorstep?
 

tango

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You seem to skirt the issue and essentially ask the question "who is my neighbor" to which Jesus gives an answer.
As an Evangelical what is the God honoring response to our neighbors whom God is bringing to our doorstep?

I don't think I'm asking that question at all. The question is how to direct resources to those in genuine need rather than those who feel like having an easy life at someone else's expense or those who seek to do us harm under the guise of being needy.
 

tango

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Like it or not I addressed your post as to number two in your scenerio so there it is

If a vague referece to Hitler counts as addressing a post then yes, you did. Frankly I didn't think you added anything useful - vague references to Hitler typically add little to a discussion, but there you go I suppose.
 

Albion

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You seem to skirt the issue and essentially ask the question "who is my neighbor" to which Jesus gives an answer.
As an Evangelical what is the God honoring response to our neighbors whom God is bringing to our doorstep?
Have you sold all that you have and given it to the poor, to those refugees, and others in need? If not, we will have to treat your question as an academic exercise rather than a real-life proposal. As an academic exercise, sure, have the government mobilize the armed forces, confiscate what Americans own, and let tens of millions of incoming refugees have it instead...in the name of Jesus, of course.

Next question??
 

Albion

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MennoSota

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I don't think I'm asking that question at all. The question is how to direct resources to those in genuine need rather than those who feel like having an easy life at someone else's expense or those who seek to do us harm under the guise of being needy.

That is the government question. It is not the Christian question. The Christian question is: What would Jesus do?
 

psalms 91

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That in many cases is also a copout to do nothing
 

MennoSota

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That in many cases is also a copout to do nothing
Are you referring to the phrase "What would Jesus Do"? Indeed, we all find ways to rebel against God's will.
The sermon on the mount gives us some very practical lessons on what Jesus would have us do. We often do not do them or take them seriously.
The three people who took them seriously ended up changing nations. These are Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr and Nelson Mandela. We would do well to pay attention when a Hindu treats God's word more seriously than God's children do.
 

psalms 91

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Not at all, I am referring to what Tango said about how to tell those who are truly needy because many times that is an excuse to do nothing
 

Albion

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Are you referring to the phrase "What would Jesus Do"? Indeed, we all find ways to rebel against God's will.
The sermon on the mount gives us some very practical lessons on what Jesus would have us do. We often do not do them or take them seriously.
The three people who took them seriously ended up changing nations. These are Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr and Nelson Mandela. We would do well to pay attention when a Hindu treats God's word more seriously than God's children do.

Gandhi obviously declined to take God's word very seriously, considering that he admired some of the advice given by Jesus for daily living but then rejected the central message of Christ by remaining a polytheistic Hindu.
 

MennoSota

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Gandhi obviously declined to take God's word very seriously, considering that he admired some of the advice given by Jesus for daily living but then rejected the central message of Christ by remaining a polytheistic Hindu.
He took the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount seriously. If you read his biography you see that he added Jesus to the pantheon of Hindu gods, which is what many Hindus tend to do with Jesus.
Now back to the subject of Evangelicals and the responsibility to love our neighbors...shall we not aspire to follow Jesus teachings?
 

Albion

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He took the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount seriously. If you read his biography you see that he added Jesus to the pantheon of Hindu gods, which is what many Hindus tend to do with Jesus.
You've essentially made my point for me with that reply. :thumbsup: Or shall I say that you paraphrased what I had written?
 
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