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    Prayer & Christian Devotion - Thread: Asking Loved Ones to Pray for Us

    1. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      My grandmother continued until her death to have long chats with my grandpa..... I don't know if she thought he actually heard her, and she never claimed she heard it talk back. I'm just not so dogmatically CERTAIN that she was thus guilty of Idolatry, regards gramps as God, or thought she was specifically praying to a dead soul in hell.... I know here church teaches that it is a SIN to PRAY to any other than God (and she accepts that) and that it's wrong to pray to the dead demons in hell. I think she was just speaking to one she loved... as she always did.... love can do that. To be honest and confess, I've talked to him, too. Often with tears. I do miss him. And our chats.

      But YEAH, we're WAY off topic!
      I get it sir
      We are told that we shall be with God as one in Heaven, exactly she wasnt praying to an idol but because he is with God she and you both are speaking to both God and him... Yea way off topic lol but it's so true. This is why we shouldn't pray through statues or anything made of gold, silver, stone etc, because it has no spirit, but to the Spirit and in spirit must we pray!
      Ok I have to stop before I confuse everyone lol it's amazing to know God this way!!

      but back to the topic....

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    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah


      My grandmother continued until her death to have long chats with my grandpa..... I don't know if she thought he actually heard her, and she never claimed she heard it talk back. I'm just not so dogmatically CERTAIN that she was thus guilty of Idolatry, regards gramps as God, or thought she was specifically praying to a dead soul in hell.... I know here church teaches that it is a SIN to PRAY to any other than God (and she accepts that) and that it's wrong to pray to the dead demons in hell. I think she was just speaking to one she loved... as she always did.... love can do that. To be honest and confess, I've talked to him, too. Often with tears. I do miss him. And our chats.


      Now.... grandmas chats.... my chats.... is it a dogmatic fact that we were SINNING? That we were guilty precisely of IDOLATRY? That we declared that grandpa was The Lord God? That we held that grandpa was a DEAD demonic spirit in hell? No. I think sometimes what some Christians dogmatically shout is silly, baseless, UNBALANCED. And I think often they just don't THINK.


      Here's my ONLY disagreement with the Roman Catholic Church on this point: It is my personal OPINION (not dogma, not a quote from the Lutheran Confessions, not a condemnation or flame of others... but my OPINION) that our brothers and sisters in heaven, fully enjoying the LIFE everlasting promised to them, enjoying the after-LIFE in Christ, simply don't hear us and aren't aware of what's happening on Earth. Do I have a verse of Scripture that states that? NO. It's my OPINION. I have opinion that they are MORE alive than when they where among us.... have MORE faith than they were here..... MORE love than they were here..... PRAY and worship more than they were here. Can I PROVE that with the words all can see in Scripture? NO. But then I'm not proclaiming as dogmatic, binding fact. The Roman Catholic Church has the opinion that they do know and hear. It can't prove that either and it doesn't even claim that it can, it is simply a belief of that church. But it is where we disagree on this;. On that singular point. We fully agree that it is a SIN to pray to any other than God (Jesus counts, lol) - REGARDLESS of whether the substitute is on earth or under the earth or on the moon of the earth or in some other galaxy (LOCATION has nothing to do with it). And we both fully agree that it is a SIN to pray to the dead demonic spirits in hell. Where we disagree is singular: The opinion of the RCC is that our loved ones alive in heaven hear us, I doubt it. I don't shout that they dogmatically are SINNING by making Idols and worshiping demonic spirits and praying to the dead. And they RCC does not accuse me of..... anything on THIS point. Catholics are not required to do ANYTHING in relation to prayer accept to direct all exclusively to God and to do all in the Name of Christ (I agree with the RCC there, too). The RCC would not burn my grandma at the stake for sharing her heart with her husband now in heaven.... or me from doing the same with my grandpa... although I no longer do.

      BTW, a LOT of Protestants (and even agnostics!) agree with the RCC and not me on this point. I've often heard at funerals and from Protestants,"Mon is smiling down from heaven just now.... Mom is pleased with this." YET the very same ones will shout - as dogmatic FACT - that our loved ones in heaven are just DEAD (even demonic spirits in hell). I actually think I disagree with the RCC on this singular point more than the Protestants who hate it on this point do. Weird, ain't it?



      There is SO much gossip on the internet.... and SO much dogmatic convincion that ANYTHING that ANYONE says on the 'net is therefore the Gospel truth. A lot of it is just gossip - which the RCC and the LCMS both hold is sin. SO much hate from Christians toward one another, often based on what actually is a baseless lie. Look.... many know me well.... I'm not famous around the 'net for praising everything about the RCC. BUT I will not - WILL NOT - join in what is baseless, wrong, flaming gossip. Toward any. I realize our Catholic and EO posters are both staying out of that whole thread (can't blame them), and I'm SURE I will forever be charged as the most gross ANTI-CATHOLIC on the internet no matter what I believe or state. But I believe in a level playing ground. I reject pure baseless false gossip. And if it is stated that a DENOMINATION (or denominations) dogmatically STATE something - I think it's fair to say "where?" And that it should NOT be praised or defended when the flamer refuses to do that. Horrible person that I am. These discussions are HARD ENOUGH as it is. We need a bit of reality, to THINK. We need to stop swallowing whole whatever we THINK someone MIGHT have posted SOMEWHERE on the internet - and parrot it endlessly. We need a bit of BALANCE. We need to THINK. We need a bit of humanity and consideration. A bit anyway. Even at CH?




      A blessed Lenten season to all....


      BACK TO THE TOPIC....



      .
      I get it sir


      .

      You seem to be the only one, lol



      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 03-09-2018 at 10:38 PM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      You seem to be the only one, lol



      .
      Oh well lol

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    4. #14
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      My thoughts.....


      What I support:


      1. Requesting Christian brothers and sisters to pray to God with us, whether such is a request or a praise or even just a feeling..... I don't think this is MANDATED (I know of no verse that states this MUST be done or that prayers will not be heard by God if we simply do this individually) but it is encouraged. We are expressly told to pray for one other, as well as to pray for our government, etc. I encourage Christians to pray to God for each other. I encourage Christians to seek this. And I do this. My present church (as well as my former Catholic church) encourage and practice this.


      What I Reject


      1. Praying TO anyone or anything anywhere that is not God (Jesus qualifies, lol). Whether the object of our prayers is in heaven on or earth or on a moon of Jupiter is entirely irrelevant; the problem is not WHERE the subject is located but whether the subject is other than God. This my present church stresses, also my former Catholic church did (In my Catholic years, it was stressed it is a SIN to pray to any other than God)

      2. That prayers are ONLY heard or answered if X number of people pray it or that they will not be heard if X or more people pray it. I believe there IS value in many praying it (more on that later) but this has nothing to do with whether God hears or answers it. It is NOT wrong from all Christians to join in a prayer.... and it is NOT wrong for a Christian to pray singularly.

      3. We should not pray to the DEAD (all of whom are in hell); indeed we are not to pray TO any other than God. It is useless to seek the prayers of the DEAD (all of whom are in hell) since I doubt they have faith and thus can pray. My church forbids praying to the dead, and so did my former Catholic church (my Catholic teachers called this a "sin").

      4. I do think we can ask any living believer to pray for us (the location of such being irrelevant). While I believe that Christians in heaven are MORE alive than any of us still bound to Earth.... and while I suspect they have MORE faith and MORE love than any of us bloats still located here.... I find little value in requesting their praying with us (more on that later); again, it's not that X number of people are required to make the prayer valid or that God hears some Christians but not others.


      Notes:


      1. I reject the often parroted view that Christians in heaven are DEAD, just like those in hell.... or even worse, are turned into demons and devils. Jesus promised that those who die in Him shall be ALIVE.... "because I live, you shall live also." Christians are promised an after LIFE, not eternal death in hell as demons.

      2. I reject that it is an expressed sin to communicate with the living in heaven. See Luke 9:28-36. But that does NOT mean that ergo it is wise to request the prayers of our Christian loved ones enjoying true life everlasting in heaven. They likely are praying for us endlessly anyway. But it is good to seek the petitions to God from our Christian friends especially.

      3. While I don't think it is wrong to seek the prayers of those with whom we have no relationship (as when the whole world prays for peace in our time), but it is especially good to seek the support of loved ones. This NOT because their prayers are effectual and ours not, NOT because at least X must pray before God bothers with it.... but because our Christian lives are lived in COMMUNITY, we are FAMILY; and God often works through the love and care of brothers and sisters who together are the church. When a brother or sister asks me to pray for them, I not only pray but I CARE about them and their request..... I'm likely to talk to them about it.... we are told to weap with those to weep, laugh with those who laugh, to give to those who need it (and usually, that's not stuff but love and time and serving). More than once, I found that God was answering a brothers pray IN PART through me. This is why I find it of little value to ask my (now alive in heaven) Grandfather to pray to God for me..... I KNOW he loves me (more than ever) but sadly isn't HERE to hug me, counsel me, kick my behind, or whatever it is that my situation suggests. He can add to the number praying but that isn't the point of prayer..... faith, love, ministry is. Prayer is often misunderstood in our time because of the radical, extreme cancer of individualism that has infected our world (and sadly modern Christianity): Christian thought and practice often seems confusing when removed from the very COMMUNITY aspect of Christianity. We are family.

      4. The Roman Catholic Church invites believers to seek the prayers of Christians now more fully living in Heaven, asking them to pray to God with me. While I don't claim such is a SIN and FORBIDDEN, I find it to be a practice of little (maybe no) value. Again, while it is also not forbidden to pray singularly or to seek the prayers of unknown person, I think what should be considered is seeking the prayers to God of a brother or sister whom we respect, who knows and loves us and is with us (even if just on the internet) so that they can be vehicles of love and ministry.... hands of God. Don't be shocked if they don't become part of the way God answers the prayer.

      5. I think there is a place for VERY carefully thought out, timeless prayers (as we might find in The Lord's Prayer and the collects and prayers of the church-at-large), and I think there is a place for individual "cries too deep for words." Both have value, both have a place. I don't displace one or the other. Some have motions associated with prayer (bowing, kneeling, closing eyes, folding hands, lifting hands to heaven, making the Sign, etc.). I don't forbid or force any of these. They can have value and where one finds such, such is likely good.

      6. I find place for praying in private, in a closet with the door closed (Jesus talked about that). And praying in public with my Christian family (Jesus talked about that). Both have a place; neither is to be forbidden.

      7. I hesitate to dogmatically state what is FORBIDDEN in prayer and brings down God's awful wrath (praying TO anything, anywhere other than God would be on that list)... but I do think some things are encouraged and helpful

      8. I know of NO denomination that dogmatically teaches that all are to "Pray TO the DEAD." IMO, that's an awful bit of gossip at best. But I do think that individual Christians can think or do things not sound and perhaps even wrong. I think that is possible because it applies to me. Sometimes innocently as one still learning and growing, and sometimes out of my sinful nature that (like St Paul) still plegues me.



      Your thoughts?



      - Josiah




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      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    5. #15
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      "Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners..." I still use this prayer from time to time.

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      Half of the Hail Mary?

    7. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Half of the Hail Mary?
      I take shortcuts sometimes to get to the main point

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    8. Likes Josiah liked this post
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      OK

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