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    Christian Advice Requested - Thread: Measurable Data?

    1. #11
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Where do I say we make a determination on someone else's faith?
      What I ask is how we can measure if we actually are growing in faith.
      How might Matthew 7:1-2 tell us how to measure our growth in faith?
      Ah, okay. I agree that we can't have others know if we have faith at all even since only God can see that within other people. As for ourselves, we should trust that God wants us to grow in faith and not turn away from Him so in that trust we should understand that Holy Spirit to be continuing His work in us in strengthening our faith.

      Whenever we talk about faith we have to talk about the object of faith which is Jesus who died for our sins. Come, let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith. There you go, concerning faith, you see that it's because of Jesus that we have a beginning of faith and a perfection of it eventually so a Christian should pray for the Holy Spirit to increase our faith in the Savior and then trust that He is doing His job.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      We can examine our selves. But an exam assumes there is a means of measurement.
      How can we know we are actually growing in our faith if all we are doing is going by our own opinion. Our opinion could be completely wrong.
      The thing is that we can examine ourselves far more reliably than an outside observer can examine us, as long as we are honest with ourselves. And the point of examining ourselves is to check something so anything less than honesty with ourselves renders self-examination utterly pointless.

      Assuming we are examining ourselves to make sure we are doing the right things, as opposed to simply looking to give ourselves an A+, a bit of honesty can safely be assumed. If we weren't assuming a bit of honesty then nothing is resolved by asking someone else to examine us because it's easier to pull the wool over their eyes.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Assessing ourselves with our God assigned measure of faith.
      https://www.desiringgod.org/messages...f-faith-part-1
      It doesn't really help with your original question - we might measure our faith but there's still nothing that can be objectively measured.

      When measuring performance in a sport there may be a number of objective measurements. In weightlifting we can see that our overall lifting capacity is improving even if we're having a bad day today. In cycling a power meter can tell us that even though we feel like we're struggling we're sustaining an output of 350 watts, compared to 250 watts six months ago.

      How do you objectively measure faith? It's little more than self-examination, which already came up in the thread. It's a subjective assessment, much like examining our lives and the lives of others for fruit.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Ah, okay. I agree that we can't have others know if we have faith at all even since only God can see that within other people. As for ourselves, we should trust that God wants us to grow in faith and not turn away from Him so in that trust we should understand that Holy Spirit to be continuing His work in us in strengthening our faith.

      Whenever we talk about faith we have to talk about the object of faith which is Jesus who died for our sins. Come, let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith. There you go, concerning faith, you see that it's because of Jesus that we have a beginning of faith and a perfection of it eventually so a Christian should pray for the Holy Spirit to increase our faith in the Savior and then trust that He is doing His job.
      This is all well and good, but how do we measure growth? We can measure the growth of our waistline or our height. How do we measure growth in faith? We hear people say they have grown in faith, but how is that measured?

    5. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      This is all well and good, but how do we measure growth? We can measure the growth of our waistline or our height. How do we measure growth in faith? We hear people say they have grown in faith, but how is that measured?
      My waistline is a physical measurement so it can be measured in any unit of distance - inches, centimeters or some other unit.
      My weight is a physical measurement so it can be measured in a variety of units - pounds, kilograms, etc.
      Both of these are objective measurements. If my weight is 200lb then it's 200lb whether I weigh myself or someone else does it - I weigh the same whether I wear tight-fitting clothes that cling to every lump and bump, or loose fitting clothes that leave my body shape only vaguely defined. I weigh the same whether I suck my tummy in and stand tall, or slouch and let my tummy hang out.

      What unit can be used to measure our faith? You keep talking about how it can be measured but unless you can suggest a method of assigning a numerical value to it there's no way of objectively measuring it and therefore no way of measuring it.

      I can gauge my own growth in that I know my own struggles, I can see the struggles I've overcome and also see the things that still plague me. I know whether my prayer life is better or worse than it was last week, last month, last year. I can gauge my own progress and conclude whether I'm moving forwards, standing still, or sliding backwards. The trouble is that it's far from objective.

      If I want someone else to think I weigh less than I do, I can suck my tummy in and stand tall. I can wear some kind of undergarment that holds my excess in place - it does precisely nothing to change my weight but makes me look slimmer and this, combined with standing tall, may trick someone else into thinking I am leaner and lighter than I really am. The reality isn't changed, but it makes me look better in the subjective judgment of others.

      Likewise if I want someone else to think my walk with God is better than it really is there are all sorts of tricks I might pull. Maybe I'll make a point of saying a particularly spiritual-sounding prayer at the Bible study group. Maybe I'll share something that suggests I've got a couple of struggles that are of a particularly spiritual nature, that relate to fine-tuning a gift the others in the group don't have, and couched in sufficiently vague terms that people are invited to speculate just how spiritual my struggle must be. Perhaps I'll do something very charitable when I know someone is watching, with bonus points for doing it when it's not clear that I know they are watching so they think they just happened to notice me doing something very loving. There are all sorts of tricks that might influence someone's subjective judgment but, like the girdle, they do nothing to change the objective reality.

      All of this continually points back to the issue of self-examination, even without an objective benchmark against which we can be tested. And it obviously requires honesty because anything else is equivalent of wearing a girdle under my shirt, then looking in the mirror and marvelling at how much weight I've lost this week.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    6. #16
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      This is all well and good, but how do we measure growth? We can measure the growth of our waistline or our height. How do we measure growth in faith? We hear people say they have grown in faith, but how is that measured?
      You don't ask if you have enough faith. You ask if you have enough Jesus There is your growth.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    7. #17
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      Looks like we might all need one of these. I wonder how much they cost.

      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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    9. #18
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      LOL tango!

      It's not like we go around saying My faith is bigger than yours but we CAN go around saying what a big Jesus we have
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    10. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post

      It's not like we go around saying My faith is bigger than yours but we CAN go around saying what a big Jesus we have



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    11. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      LOL tango!

      It's not like we go around saying My faith is bigger than yours but we CAN go around saying what a big Jesus we have
      Speak for yourself.... didn't you see my faith score on that meter? I've got nearly 37,000 faiths. Is your score anywhere near as big as my score?
      Last edited by tango; 03-06-2018 at 01:41 PM.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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