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    1. #11
      Virgil the Socialist's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      Things that are fundamentally down to personal morality need to be left to the parents but things that are fundamental to the fabric of society need to be taught by parents and by schools. To take a fairly simple example, whether sex outside of marriage is acceptable is a matter of personal morality but making sure that our partner, of whatever gender and persuasion, consents to sex is a matter of absolute right and wrong.
      That's a great example. And I think the vast majority of teachers, school administrators, and parent would agree and it would be rare to find a person launch a moral defense of Hitler or Stalin to use your other example. And you might call the error of murder and rape "absolute morality" or whatever while I would call it rationally-derived common sense that harming, violating, or exploiting people is wrong. But you say potato, I say potato.

      But then next you go on to bash moral relativism, which is ironic since what you just described is moral relativism. Most moral decisions a young person faces are not about rape or murder. It's about the mundane stuff that you relativistically categorized as "personal morality."





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      Last edited by Virgil the Socialist; 03-07-2018 at 09:04 AM.

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Krissy Cakes View Post
      They keep God out of school and look what happens.
      How is God kept out of schools? What do you wish that Christian students could do that they are prevented from doing?

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    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      Here is the thing, in the past cultures came here and were absorbed into America and now it seems that they come hee and we have to accept their ways. I for one have had it with all the PC junk, it is a part of what is slowly destroying us
      What ways have you had to accept? I found it fascinating how easy it was for you to steer the conversation away from religion and toward right wing tropes about immigrants and PC culture. It's a good example of how meaningless political rhetoric can infect other areas of discourse.

      As far as your point, America's religious views have been very diverse for hundreds of years. Even among Christians. The early European immigrants came from a continent that had over a century of killing and warfare between Christian sects. Our imperative to keep the government out of religion is a matter practicality in maintaining a civil society, not due to some need to be charitable to immigrants (although that's fine too).

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    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Virgil the Socialist View Post
      What ways have you had to accept? I found it fascinating how easy it was for you to steer the conversation away from religion and toward right wing tropes about immigrants and PC culture. It's a good example of how meaningless political rhetoric can infect other areas of discourse.

      As far as your point, America's religious views have been very diverse for hundreds of years. Even among Christians. The early European immigrants came from a continent that had over a century of killing and warfare between Christian sects. Our imperative to keep the government out of religion is a matter practicality in maintaining a civil society, not due to some need to be charitable to immigrants (although that's fine too).

      Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
      First of all I am a Democrat and many of my views are considered liberal while some are more conservative. Second, I am not against immigration, however I am against of them not being absorbed into the new country rather than trying to bring the old one with them. Third, I am old enough to remembr prayer in scholols, discipline in schools and at home, a respect for authority, etc. I do not blame any one thing for what America has become but rather a lot of thigs when added to gether have made this country poorer in terms of way of life. Religion up until 30 years or so ago had a place in every aspect of our lives and our government, changing that has not made us better when in fact it has made us worse
      Isaiah 40:31

    5. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by Virgil the Socialist View Post
      That's a great example. And I think the vast majority of teachers, school administrators, and parent would agree and it would be rare to find a person launch a moral defense of Hitler or Stalin to use your other example. And you might call the error of murder and rape "absolute morality" or whatever while I would call it rationally-derived common sense that harming, violating, or exploiting people is wrong. But you say potato, I say potato.

      But then next you go on to bash moral relativism, which is ironic since what you just described is moral relativism. Most moral decisions a young person faces are not about rape or murder. It's about the mundane stuff that you relativistically categorized as "personal morality."
      There's quite a big difference between issues that affect only consenting others and issues that affect unconsenting others.

      If two or more people give informed consent to have sex in private it's nobody else's business - it is purely a matter of personal morality. If one or more people impose their will and force an unconsenting party to have sex that now introduces the concept of a violated party, in which case it's time for the law to step in.

      There's arguably something of a complication where adultery is concerned - if someone consents to sex with someone other than their spouse then the betrayed spouse will most likely have something to say about it but, aside from possibly divorce proceedings, it's not a matter for the law.

      As far as teenagers are concerned the two are very different, even if the average teenager isn't going to be getting involved in murder and rape. What the average teenager does isn't relevant to the concepts at hand here.

      There will inevitably be variations in personal morality and as far as possible these must be accepted. The problem comes when relativism goes too far and we end up with no absolutes because in those scenarios there is no reason not to harm others for personal gain. You might call it basic common sense that physically attacking another to steal their money is a bad thing to do but in the absence of an objective morality who are you to impose your views on anyone else?

      That leads into the question of where we draw the line between allowing personal morality (or, if you will, moral relativism) and requiring adherence to a centrally defined code that has legal consequences for violating it. An obvious line to draw is the line between the act that involves only consenting others and the act that involves unwilling and unconsenting others.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    6. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      First of all I am a Democrat and many of my views are considered liberal while some are more conservative. Second, I am not against immigration, however I am against of them not being absorbed into the new country rather than trying to bring the old one with them. Third, I am old enough to remembr prayer in scholols, discipline in schools and at home, a respect for authority, etc. I do not blame any one thing for what America has become but rather a lot of thigs when added to gether have made this country poorer in terms of way of life. Religion up until 30 years or so ago had a place in every aspect of our lives and our government, changing that has not made us better when in fact it has made us worse
      Bet you never thought you'd get called right wing
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    7. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      First of all I am a Democrat and many of my views are considered liberal while some are more conservative. Second, I am not against immigration, however I am against of them not being absorbed into the new country rather than trying to bring the old one with them. Third, I am old enough to remembr prayer in scholols, discipline in schools and at home, a respect for authority, etc. I do not blame any one thing for what America has become but rather a lot of thigs when added to gether have made this country poorer in terms of way of life. Religion up until 30 years or so ago had a place in every aspect of our lives and our government, changing that has not made us better when in fact it has made us worse
      I see you mostly replied in defense of yourself, which means you felt attacked. My apologies. I was intending to comment on the populist rhetoric you were using and why I think it's inaccurate when applied to this topic.

      As far as what you just said, I think there are a lot wonderful things about the youth today. They have their problems just as every generation does, few of which are their fault alone. But be careful of romanticising the past. Nostalgia is seldom accurate.

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    8. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      There's quite a big difference between issues that affect only consenting others and issues that affect unconsenting others.

      If two or more people give informed consent to have sex in private it's nobody else's business - it is purely a matter of personal morality. If one or more people impose their will and force an unconsenting party to have sex that now introduces the concept of a violated party, in which case it's time for the law to step in.
      Well amen. I'm glad we can agree on this. That wasn't always the case. Christians have long argued that certain everyday choices like music preferences, masturbation, etc are wrong because they are part of the unchanging moral fabric of the universe imposed by a god.

      There will inevitably be variations in personal morality and as far as possible these must be accepted. The problem comes when relativism goes too far and we end up with no absolutes because in those scenarios there is no reason not to harm others for personal gain.
      Ah who decides what things are wrong due to personal values and what things are wrong because of an absolute moral code?

      in the absence of an objective morality who are you to impose your views on anyone else?
      Well that's easy. Since there is no objective morality, we can see how this has actually occurred through history. Communities decide what's in their best interest--the kinds of behaviors that are dangerous to the group's survival and well-being and those that promote their survival and well-being.

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      Last edited by Virgil the Socialist; 03-08-2018 at 07:30 AM.

    9. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Virgil the Socialist View Post
      I see you mostly replied in defense of yourself, which means you felt attacked. My apologies. I was intending to comment on the populist rhetoric you were using and why I think it's inaccurate when applied to this topic.

      As far as what you just said, I think there are a lot wonderful things about the youth today. They have their problems just as every generation does, few of which are their fault alone. But be careful of romanticising the past. Nostalgia is seldom accurate.

      Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
      True, that we tend to only remember the good but I do remember being in high school and never once ran into or heard drugs mentioned, abortion was never considered or talked about,prayer was in the schools and kids as a rule were much more respectful. I do not agree with this push to do away with religion in every aspect of public life thuws my comment about being PC. That is a term I really do hate and with religion in mind I dont like the direction this country took.
      Isaiah 40:31

    10. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      True, that we tend to only remember the good but I do remember being in high school and never once ran into or heard drugs mentioned, abortion was never considered or talked about,prayer was in the schools and kids as a rule were much more respectful. I do not agree with this push to do away with religion in every aspect of public life thuws my comment about being PC. That is a term I really do hate and with religion in mind I dont like the direction this country took.
      I think that you're assuming that removing mandated school prayer caused cultural changes rather than the other way around. Of course abortion, drugs, rampant sexual abuse of minors, domestic violence were all part of the first half of the 20th century but were taboo.

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