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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Does the Qu'ran tell the same truth found in the Christian Bible?

    1. #1
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
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      Does the Qu'ran tell the same truth found in the Christian Bible?

      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Quote the exact passage from the Quran and we can then see what the Judeo/Christian Bible says. If the Quran quotes the Bible exactly then great, but I have not read an exact quote from the Bible in the Quran. What I have read is Muhammad presenting the Gnostic stories he heard from caravaners as they passed by.
      Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
      Start a thread please.
      And I am not saying, and have not said that it is a verbatim copy; but that it reiterates the Truth found in the Bible.
      Rather than watch you two bounce back and forth, I took the liberty of starting a topic for you ...
      ... and here is a verse to really get to the heart of the matter:

      Surah 4:157 (Sahih International)
      And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

      Muslims on interpreting this verse:
      “The Qur’anic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews . . . .” - (renowned Qur’anic translator and commentator) Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Qur’an, Tenth Ed. (Beltsville, MD: Amana, 1999), 236.
      “On the subject of the crucifixion the Muslim is told in no uncertain terms in the Holy Qur’an . . . that they did not kill Him, nor did they crucify Him.” - (Muslim apologist and author) Ahmed Deedat ... Josh McDowell and John Gilchrist, The Islam Debate (San Bernardino: Here’s Life Publishers, 1983), 143.

      Is that what the Bible teaches ... that Jesus was neither crucified nor was He killed?

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    3. #2
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Rather than watch you two bounce back and forth, I took the liberty of starting a topic for you ...
      ... and here is a verse to really get to the heart of the matter:

      Surah 4:157 (Sahih International)
      And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

      Muslims on interpreting this verse:
      “The Qur’anic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews . . . .” - (renowned Qur’anic translator and commentator) Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Qur’an, Tenth Ed. (Beltsville, MD: Amana, 1999), 236.
      “On the subject of the crucifixion the Muslim is told in no uncertain terms in the Holy Qur’an . . . that they did not kill Him, nor did they crucify Him.” - (Muslim apologist and author) Ahmed Deedat ... Josh McDowell and John Gilchrist, The Islam Debate (San Bernardino: Here’s Life Publishers, 1983), 143.

      Is that what the Bible teaches ... that Jesus was neither crucified nor was He killed?
      This is the "swoon theory" that was presented in gnostic writings. Muhammad had heard these stories from the men in the caravans. Muhammad was illiterate so anything he shared would have come from memory and stories he heard. This is why we never hear Muhammad quote the Bible. We just read his claims based upon the stories he had heard.

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    5. #3
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      Matthew 27:33-37
      33 And when they came to a place called Golgotha, which means Place of a Skull, 34 they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink.
      35 And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting [p]lots. 36 And sitting down, they began to keep watch over Him there. 37 And above His head they put up the charge against Him [q]which read, “THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

      No, scripture verifies throughout the New Testament and prophesies about it in the Old Testament that Jesus was crucified. This is one of the big differences between christianity and other religions. You can always tell a false religion by what they do with Jesus. If they just make him into a good man or teacher and not fully God and fully man then it is false

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    7. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Rather than watch you two bounce back and forth, I took the liberty of starting a topic for you ...
      ... and here is a verse to really get to the heart of the matter:

      Surah 4:157 (Sahih International)
      And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

      Muslims on interpreting this verse:
      “The Qur’anic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews . . . .” - (renowned Qur’anic translator and commentator) Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Qur’an, Tenth Ed. (Beltsville, MD: Amana, 1999), 236.
      “On the subject of the crucifixion the Muslim is told in no uncertain terms in the Holy Qur’an . . . that they did not kill Him, nor did they crucify Him.” - (Muslim apologist and author) Ahmed Deedat ... Josh McDowell and John Gilchrist, The Islam Debate (San Bernardino: Here’s Life Publishers, 1983), 143.

      Is that what the Bible teaches ... that Jesus was neither crucified nor was He killed?
      (Thanks for starting the thread.

      We are speaking of the Quran specifically and not the opinions of others, correct?

      Your opening argument is great; but then you go into your percieved consensus on those who consider themselves Islamic (submissive to GOD). this is not the focus of the discussion. We shouldn't base our opinion on the opinions of others; nor should we consider a whole people as wrong due to a single interpretation held by a single sect or division or schism.

      With that being said; let's review the text you chose to provide. And thank you for doing what I wouldn't nor could do at that time.

      It is not my wish to distance myself any further from this group; though based on experience; that is what is about to happen. Let this be for the sake of profitable conversation in a peacable spirit.

      This will be of the version I use which seems close to what you provided thus far.)

      4:157. And because of their claiming, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allâh,’ whereas they killed him not, nor did they cause his death by crucifixion, but he was made to them to resemble. Verily, those who differ therein are certainly in confusion about it. They have no definite knowledge of the matter but are only following a conjecture. They did not kill him, this much is certain.

      (Can the Spirit of GOD die?)

      (Can the Holy Temple of GOD (in which the Spirit of GOD chooses to dwell) be destroyed, and too be raised again by the Will of GOD?)

      (Was Jesus the Holy Temple of GOD almighty in which the Spirit of GOD did dwell fully?)

      ( I look forward to your response and the responses of anyone else interested in simple honest peacable conversation for the sake all.)

      peace







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    8. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      This is the "swoon theory" that was presented in gnostic writings. Muhammad had heard these stories from the men in the caravans. Muhammad was illiterate so anything he shared would have come from memory and stories he heard. This is why we never hear Muhammad quote the Bible. We just read his claims based upon the stories he had heard.
      Could Moses write and speak clearly; or did Aaron do these things.?

      Let us please discuss the actual contents of the books as opposed to throwing out blanket supposition, please sir.



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      Last edited by popsthebuilder; 02-19-2018 at 11:29 PM.
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    9. #6
      Josiah's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      You can always tell a false religion by what they do with Jesus. If they just make him into a good man or teacher and not fully God and fully man then it is false

      Correct. Denying the Two Natures of Christ and that Christ IS THE (one and only and all-sufficient) Savior - yup, you can tell all false religions because they deny those two things. Jesus is not ALWAYS BOTH God and man.... and Jesus isn't the Savior (He may be a possibility-maker or helper or whatever but not THE Savior).


      To the point, no, while I've never read the Quran, I know it doesn't teach the same thing as the Bible or else it would be the Bible - that in and of itself means it MUST be different. No rocket science, lol
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    10. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      Correct. Denying the Two Natures of Christ and that Christ IS THE (one and only and all-sufficient) Savior - yup, you can tell all false religions because they deny those two things. Jesus is not ALWAYS BOTH God and man.... and Jesus isn't the Savior (He may be a possibility-maker or helper or whatever but not THE Savior).


      To the point, no, while I've never read the Quran, I know it doesn't teach the same thing as the Bible or else it would be the Bible - that in and of itself means it MUST be different. No rocket science, lol
      It actually reiterates that Jesus is the Messiah, and that the Spirit of GOD dwelled within Him, and that He is the final judge, and the ressurection. I am most likely leaving out other similarities.

      A near infinite amount of books could all reiterate the same thing in accord with one another and still not be the same book.

      Pretty sure the standard bible is actually 66 separate books, not including the OT.
      Are you telling me they don't all reiterate the same one theme?


      Is that your final answer sir.

      I'm glad that you have joined the conversation. Your personal view is always very welcome and appreciated, and contemplated.

      peace



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      Last edited by popsthebuilder; 02-19-2018 at 09:56 PM.
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      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
      Could Moses write and speak clearly; or did Aaron do these things.?

      Let us please discuss the actual contents of the books as opposed to throwing out blanket supposition, please sir.



      Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
      Moses and Aaron have nothing to do with the passage from the Quran that atpollard quoted. What he quoted is what Muslims use to teach the swoon theory.

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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Moses and Aaron have nothing to do with the passage from the Quran that atpollard quoted. What he quoted is what Muslims use to teach the swoon theory.
      Thanks for your input.

      You are the one who basically said the Quran couldn't be trusted because it was written by another individual who heard him speak.

      If that is the case then the whole of the bible could be discredited according to your logic.


      Still waiting on those differences.


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      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
      Thanks for your input.

      You are the one who basically said the Quran couldn't be trusted because it was written by another individual who heard him speak.

      If that is the case then the whole of the bible could be discredited according to your logic.


      Still waiting on those differences.


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      I am the one who said the Quran we have today was compiled over 300 years after Muhammad lived. I said that the caliphate who compiled the Quran had all other versions destroyed so that we cannot do a good textual criticism of the Quran. I said that we have less factual evidence for the life of Muhammad than we have for the life of Jesus. We do not really know who Muhammad was. What we have is thousands of oral stories created over hundreds of years. These are called the "hadith" which is translated, "the way." It is the hadith which causes Muslim to kill Muslim and call each other heretics.

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