What kills church growth?

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,566
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I just saw an ad for the title of this thread "What kills church growth?" We know it's God who grows His church but what sorts of things can prohibit the church from growing?
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
A focus on only members and not reaching out to the community.
Being legalistic and rigid in thinking and unloving
being unfriendly, members not forgiving each other wrongs
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,492
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I just saw an ad for the title of this thread "What kills church growth?" We know it's God who grows His church but what sorts of things can prohibit the church from growing?
I hate to say it, but it's usually something that is not actually the "fault" of the church in question. For example, not having a robust children's and youth program (including social events not directly connected to religious matters), not going in for a lot of emotional preaching and pop music, and not having moral standards that many people in today's society consider old-fashioned such that they prefer not to have them brought up while they're in church.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
I just saw an ad for the title of this thread "What kills church growth?" We know it's God who grows His church but what sorts of things can prohibit the church from growing?

I take this to mean: What causes a local congregation to grow or to shrink. Is that an accurate interpretation?
Many of the mega-churches use marketing schemes based upon sociological research. They simply appeal to the human wants revealed in surveys and research. This is why a Joel Osteen, Oprah Winfrey and Creflo Dollar can gain a large following. What will shrink congregations is removing the things that people want. When people do their own cost-benefit analysis, they will determine if anything is in it for themselves. If there is little benefit to themselves, they will just hop to another church. If they find no church, they will switch to another social outlet. Religion, sports, hobbies, etc. Whatever community feeds their self-want will become their "church." Do you ever wonder why so many Lutherans and Catholics only show up for Christmas and Easter? Clearly they find very little self-benefit in the church. That begs deeper perception, but that is something most people have no desire to ponder.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I must admit I was pondering along similar lines to MennoSota.

If "church growth" is measured purely in terms of how many people show up then the way to achieve it is to offer what people want, regardless of whether or not it's anything to do with Jesus Christ. Maybe pay lip service to the idea of being a church and reaching out to help people, but only in a way that doesn't really cost anything. Whether you claim those needing help were merely predestined to be poor or blame them in some way for their own suffering (they didn't pray enough, they lack faith, they follow the wrong god etc) doesn't really matter, we can throw them a few bones while metaphorically patting them on the head and not getting our hands too dirty.

On the other hand if people are showing up and actually living the gospel as Jesus taught us, that's pretty radical compared to modern society. These days it seems people go for "virtue signalling" where they show everyone they are on the right side of current events, but they do it with nothing more than a new background for their Facebook profile picture, or by retweeting from the right people, or posting the right opinions online, or whatever else it is. You know, after the latest atrocity everyone and their dog updates their profile picture to say "I stand with (whoever it was today)". I'm sure the victims of the latest tragedy really appreciate knowing how many people from around the world "stand with them" (obviously without doing anything useful, because that would cost something). But to actually get your hands dirty and deal with "the least of these", to love the unlovely, that involves a personal cost and some of the people are, well, a bit icky. Likewise to take what Scripture says and actually preach it, including when it says something is sinful, flies in the face of a society that thinks anything goes and the only thing nobody should be doing is judging.

Hence if church growth is measured by how many people show up, what kills it is a failure of marketing. If you don't give people somethign they don't show up.

If church growth is measured in terms of the spiritual growth of its members, the dynamic changes completely. In this situation what kills church growth is anything that stunts the spiritual growth of the membership, however large or small it may be. Chances are that's going to involve either a lack of solid Biblical teaching, or a lack of discipling, or the kind of atmosphere where people feel they can't be real because people will judge them. And to an extent that's something that's difficult to weed out, short of identifying people who cause the problem and either solving it or removing them from the church.
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I must admit I was pondering along similar lines to MennoSota.

If "church growth" is measured purely in terms of how many people show up then the way to achieve it is to offer what people want, regardless of whether or not it's anything to do with Jesus Christ. Maybe pay lip service to the idea of being a church and reaching out to help people, but only in a way that doesn't really cost anything. Whether you claim those needing help were merely predestined to be poor or blame them in some way for their own suffering (they didn't pray enough, they lack faith, they follow the wrong god etc) doesn't really matter, we can throw them a few bones while metaphorically patting them on the head and not getting our hands too dirty.

On the other hand if people are showing up and actually living the gospel as Jesus taught us, that's pretty radical compared to modern society. These days it seems people go for "virtue signalling" where they show everyone they are on the right side of current events, but they do it with nothing more than a new background for their Facebook profile picture, or by retweeting from the right people, or posting the right opinions online, or whatever else it is. You know, after the latest atrocity everyone and their dog updates their profile picture to say "I stand with (whoever it was today)". I'm sure the victims of the latest tragedy really appreciate knowing how many people from around the world "stand with them" (obviously without doing anything useful, because that would cost something). But to actually get your hands dirty and deal with "the least of these", to love the unlovely, that involves a personal cost and some of the people are, well, a bit icky. Likewise to take what Scripture says and actually preach it, including when it says something is sinful, flies in the face of a society that thinks anything goes and the only thing nobody should be doing is judging.

Hence if church growth is measured by how many people show up, what kills it is a failure of marketing. If you don't give people somethign they don't show up.

If church growth is measured in terms of the spiritual growth of its members, the dynamic changes completely. In this situation what kills church growth is anything that stunts the spiritual growth of the membership, however large or small it may be. Chances are that's going to involve either a lack of solid Biblical teaching, or a lack of discipling, or the kind of atmosphere where people feel they can't be real because people will judge them. And to an extent that's something that's difficult to weed out, short of identifying people who cause the problem and either solving it or removing them from the church.

Having worked in a church twice before, I can tell you that rarely are most church conflicts doctrinal in nature. Most of the time it is over something such as someone got their feelings hurt because the pastor didn't come see them in the hospital (probably because the pastor didn't know about them being in the hospital) or they wanted orange carpet and the church decided on a different color or they don't like the youth ministers hair or something mundane like that. From what I have seen it is not usually doctrinal.
I had one man quit as a Sunday School teacher because I suggested the classes have fellowships together outside of the Sunday School hour. It was just a suggestion, but he got offended and quit all of the offices he held without coming to me to try and resolve the situation
 

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,485
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
I just saw an ad for the title of this thread "What kills church growth?" We know it's God who grows His church but what sorts of things can prohibit the church from growing?

Within the question you ask lies a few assumptions. Namely, they are:

1. The "church" is a body of believers/belief that can be measured or quantified by standards we can observe. As there are many churches under the banner of Christ expressing many different beliefs and practices, it is difficult to coral them all within a statement of faith, and even if this is done there will be differences that render that statement wholly or partially meaningless.

2. Given the assumption in #1, the second assumption is that there is a list (usually a short list) that can be applied to "fix" the "problem"

As other posters have mentioned, there are a variety of reasons people will not come to (no growth) or cease to come to (negative growth) a particular church under the banner that we observe as "the church". Any one of them, taken as "the reason" or "the main reason" falls short, because there are as many reasons people don't go or stop going to a particular church as there are churches. Some for simply social reasons, some for doctrinal, some for a variety of reasons.

I personally would be in the "negative growth" equation as I do not attend a church(given assumption #1 is accurate, which I don't believe) - but did for the major part of my years thus far. The reasons for me weren't lack of pop music or church functions or things of that nature. The biggest reason for me was the duplicity I saw in people, some of the doctrines of Saul/Paul that I could never accept, and lack of intellectual honesty in certain areas of church practice and belief that applies to most.
 

popsthebuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,850
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I just saw an ad for the title of this thread "What kills church growth?" We know it's God who grows His church but what sorts of things can prohibit the church from growing?
Greed, division, pride, and fear

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Having worked in a church twice before, I can tell you that rarely are most church conflicts doctrinal in nature. Most of the time it is over something such as someone got their feelings hurt because the pastor didn't come see them in the hospital (probably because the pastor didn't know about them being in the hospital) or they wanted orange carpet and the church decided on a different color or they don't like the youth ministers hair or something mundane like that. From what I have seen it is not usually doctrinal.
I had one man quit as a Sunday School teacher because I suggested the classes have fellowships together outside of the Sunday School hour. It was just a suggestion, but he got offended and quit all of the offices he held without coming to me to try and resolve the situation

I'm sure much conflict is over something petty although personally I don't think I've experienced that. I have left one church because I found their teaching was badly off-base and getting worse (and leadership refused to address my concerns at all - they wouldn't/couldn't even give me answers to my questions of how it might reconcile with Scripture). I've seen people leave a church over a stance on something they considered to be major, and I've seen division within a church over a major building project (by "major" I'm talking a project running into the mid-range of seven figures).

Maybe I've been lucky, maybe you've been unlucky.
 

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,485
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
In addition to the answer I already provided, I'd like to provide one that is a little more base:

Sex. Between male and female, marriage, and children. More sex, more children, more young ones brought up in the religion = either growth or at least some level of sustainability, on the given that they do not verge from it later.

That actually applies to any religion. On pure numbers, the Muslim faith will continue to outgrow the Christian faith or any other faith that does not procreate. The wide acceptance of abortion and homosexual "marriages", along with radical feminism all contribute. They are big factors in the "killing" of the church (that is, on the assumption of what that is), simply on numbers.
 

faramir.pete

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2017
Messages
152
Age
67
Location
Peterborough
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
Well I think the responses to this question here exemplify what is wrong with 'churches' in our world today. They are all focussed upon quantity and not quality, which is odd when you consider that Christ told us that it is our love for one another that would set us apart from the world in which we live. It seems loving one another is more difficult than all the other things that take up the energy of church goers. But that is probably just my opinion.


Pete from Peterborough UK
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,492
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Well I think the responses to this question here exemplify what is wrong with 'churches' in our world today. They are all focussed upon quantity and not quality...
Well, that is what the original post asked about.

Sure, it probably is possible to use the term "church growth" to mean increase in grace or awareness or something else, but nothing like that was even hinted at in the question that was put to us. Had some meaning other than increase in attendance or membership, which is the usual meaning of this term, been even hinted at in the OP, we would probably have answered differently.
 
Last edited:

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,647
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
A focus on only members and not reaching out to the community.
Being legalistic and rigid in thinking and unloving
being unfriendly, members not forgiving each other wrongs


Good points....


But I think SOMETIMES very healthy, very missional, very loving churches also don't numerically grow..... I don't know why.

Then I look at my brother's church - already worshipping well into the thousands every weekend - no theology AT ALL, the antithesis of legalistic and thinking... but exciting and with very professional and LOUD entertainment and LOTS of personal services.... and while it looses hundreds of people every week, it gains more than that every week.

I will say one thing for it: it's a great place for 20 somethings to meet other 20 somethings..... and the services would put most professional rock concerts to shame. Maybe why it grows is that they LITERALLY have their own Starbucks... yup, a full Starbucks in the "Gathering" (as they call their entrance area), with indoor and outdoor seating.... and if visitors check in at the "Guest Center" they get a coupon for a FREE coffee there (any of their choice). I took 'em up on that....

The ways of God are sometimes mysterious.....



- Josiah
 
Last edited:

faramir.pete

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2017
Messages
152
Age
67
Location
Peterborough
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
Well, that is what the original post asked about.

Sure, it probably is possible to use the term "church growth" to mean increase in grace or awareness or something else, but nothing like that was even hinted at in the question that was put to us. Had some meaning other than increase in attendance or membership, which is the usual meaning of this term, been even hinted at in the OP, we would probably have answered differently.

Odd that I thought the question is 'what kills church growth' and growth can be measured in many ways, I like to measure things the way Jesus says we should.


Pete from Peterborough UK
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,492
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Odd that I thought the question is 'what kills church growth' and growth can be measured in many ways, I like to measure things the way Jesus says we should.
I cannot fault you for following what you think Jesus recommended, but the question put to us here was about growth in numbers--which as I recall was something Jesus also spoke favorably about happening with his church.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I cannot fault you for following what you think Jesus recommended, but the question put to us here was about growth in numbers--which as I recall was something Jesus also spoke favorably about happening with his church.

The question was actually "what kills church growth" without an explicit focus on numbers. In our culture we typically regard "church growth" as "an increase in butts on pews" as opposed to "an increase in grace and wisdom" or "becoming more like Jesus". I'd be interested to know how many ministers would rather lead a congregation of 50 dedicated followers of Jesus, or 5000 people who were only there for the entertainment and what they could get out of it. How many ministers would rather see their church building turned into a wine bar and meet in someone's house, but lead a group of people who were truly on fire for God, as opposed to needing to extend the building to house the endless groups that sat around discussing nothing of any consequence. How many ministers would ask a wealthy and generous donor to leave, because that one person was making dozens of poorer members (who would probably never make a financial contribution of any consequence) unwelcome.

As a side note on that last point, one thing I really admired about my former pastor was that he had no idea who gave what to the church, and he specifically excused himself from any discussion that might relate to who was giving what. As he said, he wanted to focus his attention on who had spiritual needs rather than on who was most generous, and if he knew which members were giving the most he might be tempted to give them priority over people of more limited financial means but who had a more pressing spiritual need.
 

faramir.pete

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2017
Messages
152
Age
67
Location
Peterborough
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
I cannot fault you for following what you think Jesus recommended, but the question put to us here was about growth in numbers--which as I recall was something Jesus also spoke favorably about happening with his church.

I do not see any reference in the question to the quantitative evaluation you allude to.


Pete from Peterborough UK
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Good points....


But I think SOMETIMES very healthy, very missional, very loving churches also don't numerically grow..... I don't know why.

Then I look at my brother's church - already worshipping well into the thousands every weekend - no theology AT ALL, the antithesis of legalistic and thinking... but exciting and with very professional and LOUD entertainment and LOTS of personal services.... and while it looses hundreds of people every week, it gains more than that every week.

I will say one thing for it: it's a great place for 20 somethings to meet other 20 somethings..... and the services would put most professional rock concerts to shame. Maybe why it grows is that they LITERALLY have their own Starbucks... yup, a full Starbucks in the "Gathering" (as they call their entrance area), with indoor and outdoor seating.... and if visitors check in at the "Guest Center" they get a coupon for a FREE coffee there (any of their choice). I took 'em up on that....

The ways of God are sometimes mysterious.....



- Josiah

They would be a church that is seen as growing only if we use the numeric growth category. If you use discipleship or godly living probably not so much.
This church sounds like the church i was attending a few weeks ago, except the one i attended didn't have a Starbucks. But, I don't drink coffee anyway, so no loss for me
 

popsthebuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,850
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Good points....


But I think SOMETIMES very healthy, very missional, very loving churches also don't numerically grow..... I don't know why.

Then I look at my brother's church - already worshipping well into the thousands every weekend - no theology AT ALL, the antithesis of legalistic and thinking... but exciting and with very professional and LOUD entertainment and LOTS of personal services.... and while it looses hundreds of people every week, it gains more than that every week.

I will say one thing for it: it's a great place for 20 somethings to meet other 20 somethings..... and the services would put most professional rock concerts to shame. Maybe why it grows is that they LITERALLY have their own Starbucks... yup, a full Starbucks in the "Gathering" (as they call their entrance area), with indoor and outdoor seating.... and if visitors check in at the "Guest Center" they get a coupon for a FREE coffee there (any of their choice). I took 'em up on that....

The ways of God are sometimes mysterious.....



- Josiah
A freakin Starbucks man?

Not too cool.

I find the small rather homely looking gospel churches to have the most Spirit I think.....though this is admittedly based on a singular church building and a single trip to said church building.

I went to a separate one one time with similar theme but that was seemingly using some hand ointment/alcohol /lotion and putting hands on members who would feel warmth from the lotion (to manipulate their reasoning into thinking some profound thing was going on; in my own mind anyway).

They allowed me to come up and donate three separate times; or rather called for donations three separate times. This too was unsettling to me personally.

With that being said; it cannot be concluded that all small churches are good.

On the contrary I don't think super extravagant church buildings are a sure sign that it is bad or not bringing glory to GOD.....but a Starbucks!.....how many times do they take donations?

peace

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,647
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
BIG TIME CHURCH GROWTH AS EXAMPLED BY ONE OF THE BIGGEST, FASTEST GROWING CHURCH IN THE USA....

My older brother attends this church. It has literally thousands in worship each weekend. I've been to it 3 or 4 times with my brother (although this was at least 5 years ago, it's probably doubled in size since then)..... Here's what is OBVIOUS and could easily be copied by any other church....


1. Have LOTS and LOTS of options. MANY worship times in lots of different venues. People like choices and convenience. Some like crowds, some like intimacy; some like stadium seating and others sofas. Some like it "live" and some on huge video monitors. Some like to drink soft drinks or coffee during worship, some don't. Some want to worship in the morning, some in the afternoon, some in the evening; some on Friday, some on Saturday, some on Sunday. CHOICES.


2. Have a HUGE welcoming area (they call it "The Gathering"). Nice, inviting, HUGE.... Have a welcome desk with lots of information and maps and schedules... and if they've never registered online (giving their name and email addy) they can do it here and get a coupon for FREE Starbucks drinks (any variety, any size) for they and all in their party (This works.... they even bought my info).


3. Have your own full Starbucks. Really nice. Friendly seating inside and out. Big draw. I suppose it wouldn't have to be Starbucks; it could be Peets or something.


4. NO beliefs. They divide and trouble and raise questions. Just don't have any. "We are about love!" "We lift up the God of love!" "We believe in JESUS!" Frown on denominations, doctrine, teachings.


5. Have no morality, just "look in your heart!"


6. Have LOTS of single, good-looking girls (it brings in the boys..... probably works the other way, too). My brother first went to this church as an alternative to the bar scene. He's HARDLY alone. I'd say at least 2/3's of the worshippers are in the 15 - 35 age group.


6. Dress your preacher in jeans and an ahola shirt. Obviously, no pulpit (he must walk around a lot mic'ed). No holding some leather-bound floppy Bible.


7. LOTS of music..... none of which can be found in any Christian hymnal.... done VERY, VERY professionally, complete will all the high tech and background tricks. And (here's the essential thing) LOUD. I don't mean high volumn, I mean shakes the chairs, vibrates the floor, can't-hear-the-baby-crying-next-to-you L.O.U.D. Been to any heavy metal rock concerts???? You got the idea. In your church, you might need to install a couple hundred more speakers but you can do it.


8. Tell the preacher to make the people laugh and make the cry and mention God and Jesus now and then.... but don't teach (It divides, it troubles, it raises questions, it makes you sound like your grandpas church).


9. No Communion. No Baptism. It divides. It troubles. It raises questions. It makes it seem like grandpa's church. Worse, it takes time away from the music. And since they don't do anything, why do them? If you REALLY want to get baptized, go to the Welcome counter and they'll give you the email addy of the Methodist Church across the street.


10. Have lots of studies (that choice thing again). Doesn't matter what the topics are, what the titles are - as long as the first two words in the title are "HOW TO....."



Works. This mega church really brings 'em in.



- Josiah


[Admission: a bit of exaggeration has been employed - but not that much, lol]




.
 
Top Bottom