age you can buy a gun

psalms 91

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So you're back to blaming the NRA for a lack of common sense, all the while refusing to write anything objective and reverting to lots of hand wringing and emotional appeals that Something Must Be Done without taking the time to think of what might usefully be done.

It's easy to refer to "rabid rhetoric" but it would be far more useful to actually address the rhetoric and explain why you think it's wrong. Like, for example, why people refuse to accept the idea that "the solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" but then when faced with a bad guy with a gun they want to call the police (i.e. a good guy with a gun).

When law-abiding gun owners (there's a clue in the name, specifically the "law-abiding" bit) are estimated to own anything up to 500,000,000 guns and anything up to 1,000,000,000,000 rounds of ammunition, don't you think that the entire nation would be a bloodbath if that section of the population were the problem?
One who has the most powerful lobby in Washington? Two who influences lawmakers the most even when the populace cries out for change? Yes, it is time to place blame for inaction right where it lays and to do something about it. No, you muddy the waters nicely, did you copy those lines from the NRA? Most gunowners are responsible, that is not the argument and never has been. As I stated earlier I support gun ownership, what I do not support is the right to own a weapon capable of killing so many in such a short amount of time. Now I am done unless you choose to make another outragious post claiming I believe siomething I dont. By the way I have already stated I support arming teachers, what I dont support is weapons like an AR 15
 

tango

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One who has the most powerful lobby in Washington? Two who influences lawmakers the most even when the populace cries out for change? Yes, it is time to place blame for inaction right where it lays and to do something about it. No, you muddy the waters nicely, did you copy those lines from the NRA? Most gunowners are responsible, that is not the argument and never has been. As I stated earlier I support gun ownership, what I do not support is the right to own a weapon capable of killing so many in such a short amount of time. Now I am done unless you choose to make another outragious post claiming I believe siomething I dont. By the way I have already stated I support arming teachers, what I dont support is weapons like an AR 15

You're repeating yourself without adding anything useful.

What is it about the AR-15 you find so troublesome? You still didn't say a single thing about the AR-15 except that you don't support them. Why don't you support them? What's so bad about them? And how would you objectively differentiate between a gun you think is OK and a gun you think is not OK? You talk of "killing so many in a short amount of time". Do you know how fast an AR-15 can fire? How does one "kill so many" with an AR-15 in a way that couldn't be done with, say, a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm?

If you could cut the whining about the NRA and look at arguments on their merits that would be a huge help. The fact the NRA says something doesn't mean it's right or it's wrong, just that it's the opinion of the NRA. Of course it's so surprise that the National Rifle Association is in favor of keeping guns but that doesn't mean their commentaries can be written off as irrelevant - if you can't address them based on reasoning then trying to just write it off as "rabid rhetoric" does little other than indicate you don't have an argument of your own.

Even your arguments about "the populace cries out for change" doesn't work. The fact some cry out for change doesn't mean that this is what the nation as a whole wants. If that were the case then every presidential inauguration would need to be followed by the impeachment, given how many times large and vocal elements of the population have been so opposed to the newly elected president. It's no great surprise that those on the left were dismayed by the election of Trump, just as those on the right were dismayed at Obama twice and those on the left were dismayed at Bush twice. Whenever there's a tragedy there are knee-jerk calls that Something Must Be Done (usually without any useful suggestions as to what might be done). Endlessly commenting about "blame for inaction" isn't a useful contribution to the discussion unless you've got something useful to suggest as far as what action should be taken - it's equivalent to demanding that Somebody Must Do Something, then criticising those who object to the proposed solution.

You also keep saying you are done which, combined with your ongoing refusal to make any concrete suggestions, seems like little more than simply walking away from a discussion when people don't want to join in the hand-wringing. Are you going to give some concrete answers to the questions here?
 

psalms 91

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You're repeating yourself without adding anything useful.

What is it about the AR-15 you find so troublesome? You still didn't say a single thing about the AR-15 except that you don't support them. Why don't you support them? What's so bad about them? And how would you objectively differentiate between a gun you think is OK and a gun you think is not OK? You talk of "killing so many in a short amount of time". Do you know how fast an AR-15 can fire? How does one "kill so many" with an AR-15 in a way that couldn't be done with, say, a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm?

If you could cut the whining about the NRA and look at arguments on their merits that would be a huge help. The fact the NRA says something doesn't mean it's right or it's wrong, just that it's the opinion of the NRA. Of course it's so surprise that the National Rifle Association is in favor of keeping guns but that doesn't mean their commentaries can be written off as irrelevant - if you can't address them based on reasoning then trying to just write it off as "rabid rhetoric" does little other than indicate you don't have an argument of your own.

Even your arguments about "the populace cries out for change" doesn't work. The fact some cry out for change doesn't mean that this is what the nation as a whole wants. If that were the case then every presidential inauguration would need to be followed by the impeachment, given how many times large and vocal elements of the population have been so opposed to the newly elected president. It's no great surprise that those on the left were dismayed by the election of Trump, just as those on the right were dismayed at Obama twice and those on the left were dismayed at Bush twice. Whenever there's a tragedy there are knee-jerk calls that Something Must Be Done (usually without any useful suggestions as to what might be done). Endlessly commenting about "blame for inaction" isn't a useful contribution to the discussion unless you've got something useful to suggest as far as what action should be taken - it's equivalent to demanding that Somebody Must Do Something, then criticising those who object to the proposed solution.

You also keep saying you are done which, combined with your ongoing refusal to make any concrete suggestions, seems like little more than simply walking away from a discussion when people don't want to join in the hand-wringing. Are you going to give some concrete answers to the questions here?
Wow is all I can say. The blood is on your hands if that is your position and everyone like you. Why AR-15;s I think I have already said why but you dont listen. What is acceptable? A bolt action or even a gun that is not rapid fire, no need to have those. As I said I am done with this as you will never change your tune and you will never help bring about the change that is needed to not have another mass shooting like this again. I guess we should have learned from Sandy Hook that life is cheap and so is talk and sympathy but real change now that is something very valuable. By the way when you see a million people marching in Washington next month demanding change will you think that is more than a few or will that be ignored as well. As to what action to take once again outlaw AR 15's and weapons like them, outlaw bump stocks, put money where the mouth is for mental health and a national data base including that aspect. That is a start
 

NewCreation435

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Wow is all I can say. The blood is on your hands if that is your position and everyone like you. Why AR-15;s I think I have already said why but you dont listen. What is acceptable? A bolt action or even a gun that is not rapid fire, no need to have those. As I said I am done with this as you will never change your tune and you will never help bring about the change that is needed to not have another mass shooting like this again. I guess we should have learned from Sandy Hook that life is cheap and so is talk and sympathy but real change now that is something very valuable. By the way when you see a million people marching in Washington next month demanding change will you think that is more than a few or will that be ignored as well. As to what action to take once again outlaw AR 15's and weapons like them, outlaw bump stocks, put money where the mouth is for mental health and a national data base including that aspect. That is a start

There is still an issue with about 8 million AK 15's already out there on the streets.
 

tango

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Wow is all I can say. The blood is on your hands if that is your position and everyone like you.

Such an awesome piece of reasoning. I stand amazed at such an erudite response.

Why AR-15;s I think I have already said why but you dont listen.

You've made some vague comments about being able to kill people quickly, that suggests you don't actually know much about using an AR-15. You've steadfastly refused to answer my questions about the specifics of an AR-15.

What is acceptable? A bolt action or even a gun that is not rapid fire, no need to have those.

So what counts as "rapid fire"? There's no need to have all sorts of other things that aren't related to guns - should they be banned as well because someone thinks we don't need them? If a weapon is for self-defense it's not much use against multiple attackers if it takes you a couple of minutes to clean and reload it. Perhaps in order to be able to protect ourselves we need to carry a dozen muzzle loaders, all primed and loaded and ready to fire.

As I said I am done with this as you will never change your tune and you will never help bring about the change that is needed to not have another mass shooting like this again. I guess we should have learned from Sandy Hook that life is cheap and so is talk and sympathy but real change now that is something very valuable. By the way when you see a million people marching in Washington next month demanding change will you think that is more than a few or will that be ignored as well. As to what action to take once again outlaw AR 15's and weapons like them, outlaw bump stocks, put money where the mouth is for mental health and a national data base including that aspect. That is a start

A million people marching still doesn't prove anything in a nation of 250 times that. Vocal minorites don't always represent the majority viewpoint.

You're still pushing vague ideas where guns are concerned with nothing concrete. You say "AR 15s and weapons like them", despite repeated requests to be specific you're refusing. And somehow you still claim I'm the problem with this discussion.

Mental health is certainly a good place to start, which is pretty much what I've been saying all along. It makes far more sense to understand why people reach a place where they apparently believe that all that is left for them is to go down in as great a bloodbath as they can manage, than to worry about the precise mechanism for triggering the bloodbath once they have already snapped.
 

Stravinsk

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Heh

Tango, but for the fact I like reading your posts, I'd be tempted to say don't bother to respond.

For starters, the OP can't even get the weapon right. It's an AR-15, not an AK 15. I mean sheesh, if someone is going to pontificate on a garbage story, at least get the garbage story right in the details, lol.

Secondly, the other poster is just virtue signalling like a Pharisee. I mean, have a look:

And we dont want Kim Jong either. As for the sanctions hurting the people he was already starving them just to boost his nuclear program so dont preach to me about the USA hurting the common people, we are hurting him and I hope it works or else I can see a war coming. For 20 years we have tried diplomacy and now it is time to show that we are not a doormat and we wont be lied to. I agree about Trump but in this I support him and so does the UN. Noone wants to see a nuclear North Korea, thsat is far more dangerous than Donald is

http://christianityhaven.com/showth...for-North-and-South-Korea&p=109225#post109225

He'll cry a river over 17 people the corporate news told him died, but when the same Corporate news will tell him it's time to murder a bunch of Asians for their own good because their leader is a jerk, well, not a problem. Oh, nasty business, but it has to be done.


Some people's minds are little more than vessels for whatever the State or it's Media tells them.
 

psalms 91

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Such an awesome piece of reasoning. I stand amazed at such an erudite response.



You've made some vague comments about being able to kill people quickly, that suggests you don't actually know much about using an AR-15. You've steadfastly refused to answer my questions about the specifics of an AR-15.



So what counts as "rapid fire"? There's no need to have all sorts of other things that aren't related to guns - should they be banned as well because someone thinks we don't need them? If a weapon is for self-defense it's not much use against multiple attackers if it takes you a couple of minutes to clean and reload it. Perhaps in order to be able to protect ourselves we need to carry a dozen muzzle loaders, all primed and loaded and ready to fire.



A million people marching still doesn't prove anything in a nation of 250 times that. Vocal minorites don't always represent the majority viewpoint.

You're still pushing vague ideas where guns are concerned with nothing concrete. You say "AR 15s and weapons like them", despite repeated requests to be specific you're refusing. And somehow you still claim I'm the problem with this discussion.

Mental health is certainly a good place to start, which is pretty much what I've been saying all along. It makes far more sense to understand why people reach a place where they apparently believe that all that is left for them is to go down in as great a bloodbath as they can manage, than to worry about the precise mechanism for triggering the bloodbath once they have already snapped.
Bye
 

Josiah

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I don't own a gun.... I've never even physically touched a gun (not even a toy one).... closest I've come is a water squirt gun - and it wasn't in the form of a gun...


BUT....


I honestly don't think guns are the problem. People are. Sick people. People who don't value human life.


My barber told me when he was a kid, LOTS of highschoolers had guns in the car or truck, and he was a member of the largest school club, the gun club. He brought a rifle to school every day there was a club meeting to use for target shooting after school. NO ONE even thought of a theoretical possibility that such would be used to KILL PEOPLE, didn't even cross the mind of anyone. What has changed? Not the guns....


We have two problems....


1. A Pro-Death morality and mentality. Note the prevailence of abortion and euthanasia in our society, so treasured as if they were Sacraments. Note video games. The reason why people walk onto campus and shoot people is not because there are more guns (there are FEWER of them now) but because we now live in a culture where life isn't honored. What do we teach kids when we say we can kill innocent, defenseless life because we wanna (abortion)? We teach them that we can kill innocent, defenseless life because we wanna.


2. Mental illness. Nothin' new here, there's always been a small percentage of mentally ill people (and probably FEWER of them have guns today, see #1 above). We USE to institutionalize them and label them, but we can't anymore. Think of the mass murderers in the past generation or so, every one has clearly been mentally ill (and morally sick). Funny.... we see the common denominator of a gun but don't see the common denominator of mental illness and moral depravity.



- Josiah
 

tango

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I don't own a gun.... I've never even physically touched a gun (not even a toy one).... closest I've come is a water squirt gun - and it wasn't in the form of a gun...

BUT....

I honestly don't think guns are the problem. People are. Sick people. People who don't value human life.

Exactly. Guns have been around for hundreds of years so if guns were the problem we'd have been seeing mass shootings for decades. Something has changed in recent years.

My barber told me when he was a kid, LOTS of highschoolers had guns in the car or truck, and he was a member of the largest school club, the gun club. He brought a rifle to school every day there was a club meeting to use for target shooting after school. NO ONE even thought of a theoretical possibility that such would be used to KILL PEOPLE, didn't even cross the mind of anyone. What has changed? Not the guns....

Also true.

We have two problems....

1. A Pro-Death morality and mentality. Note the prevailence of abortion and euthanasia in our society, so treasured as if they were Sacraments. Note video games. The reason why people walk onto campus and shoot people is not because there are more guns (there are FEWER of them now) but because we now live in a culture where life isn't honored. What do we teach kids when we say we can kill innocent, defenseless life because we wanna (abortion)? We teach them that we can kill innocent, defenseless life because we wanna.

I often wonder about the issue with video games. They seem like an convenient scapegoat, much like heavy metal is often a convenient scapegoat for the times someone suffering with chronic depression spends six hours listening to Ozzy Osbourne and then kills themselves. It's always hard to know whether there is an actual cause-and-effect relationship (and if so which is the cause and which is the effect), or merely some form of correlation that may or may not be relevant. Back in the day I used to enjoy playing Grand Theft Auto and wreaking a reign of carnage on the fictional towns (quite often I'd simply commit enough crimes to get the police to show up, then fire on the emergency services until the SWAT teams and special forces showed up, then see how long I could stay alive). In the fictional world of GTA my "rap sheet" was huge; in the real world my rap sheet is a far more modest 0 murders, 0 hit-and-run, 0 carjackings, 0 molotov cocktails thrown, 0 police officers killed. In the real world I don't have as much as a speeding ticket. Maybe I'm an outlier but it does lead me to suspect there's more to it than violent video games.

2. Mental illness. Nothin' new here, there's always been a small percentage of mentally ill people (and probably FEWER of them have guns today, see #1 above). We USE to institutionalize them and label them, but we can't anymore. Think of the mass murderers in the past generation or so, every one has clearly been mentally ill (and morally sick). Funny.... we see the common denominator of a gun but don't see the common denominator of mental illness and moral depravity.

Interestingly it seems that mental illness (that truly is an illness, and not the individual's fault) is so often not labelled as such any more, while all sorts of other things are labelled as "disorders". The relentless rise in diagnoses of ADHD is remarkable (to be clear here, I have no doubt that some people do have a genuine brain disorder that is best treated with medication, but struggle to believe that it's anywhere near as commonplace as diagnoses would have us think). A system that is endlessly geared up to make allowances for people creates advantages for people who can claim a "disorder" because, at a stroke, any failings in their work or shortcomings in their achievements aren't their fault and they need more allowances made.

Where not that long ago children were expected to do as they were told, to sit down and be quiet, to prepare for places like waiting rooms and take a book to read - now just about everything revolves around children. You can't go to a restaurant without running the gauntlet of screaming children, waiting rooms are turned into playgrounds so you get to sit and wait while tolerating some unrestrained brat running around shouting, and so on. The education system these days appears to value diversity and inclusion over education, and value self-esteem over achievement. The real world doesn't care whether you feel good about yourself, it doesn't see that you failed 142 times but still gives you another chance, and it isn't interested in the fine-sounding excuse you thought up for why you didn't do what you were supposed to do. When we essentially set an entire generation up to fail, all the while telling them that nothing is their fault, teaching them about this mysterious "privilege" that Other People enjoy, and then sending them out into the real world totally unprepared for anything except a lifetime of blaming anyone and everyone else, that's unlikely to help the situation. Clearly it doesn't justify committing atrocities in any way at all but I do sometimes wonder how much damage is done by people who are set up to fail while being taught that their failure is someone else's fault - sooner or later it seems at least plausible that they will seek vengeance on the Someone Else who they perceive as being to blame.
 

psalms 91

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I guess you never will answer my questions then. So be it.
I have answered and I am done, your talk is like a parrot for the NRA if I want to I can read that on their website. You just dont like my answers so as you say so be it or do you need to get the last word as well.
 

tango

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I have answered and I am done, your talk is like a parrot for the NRA if I want to I can read that on their website. You just dont like my answers so as you say so be it or do you need to get the last word as well.

You didn't actually give an answer. I'm still waiting to find out what's so bad about an AR-15 that doesn't apply to, say, a Smith&Wesson M&P 9mm. I'm curious how fast you think an AR-15 actually fires, given your insistence that they shouldn't be allowed based on nothing more than a vague assertion that they kill people quickly (as if a 9mm in each hand wouldn't also kill quickly). You never replied when I asked what counted as "rapid fire" when you said that shouldn't be allowed, nor did you address how a gun for self-defense is any use if it takes a minute or more to reload it.

You also keep referring to the NRA without actually addressing any of the arguments. The fact the NRA says something doesn't make it right or wrong, and if the best you've got is to refer to the NRA without addressing the argument it suggests you can't actually address the argument. Using the same line of "reasoning" (I use the term in its loosest possible context here) one might write off your posts with nothing more than "ah yes, the usual Leftist approach".

Of course using reason and logic is more work than making emotional comments about who has blood on their hands.
 

tango

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I just read an article (unfortunately I can't figure out how to link to it, because it was on an e-reader on my tablet) that showed a Washington Post-ABC News survey showed 77 percent of respondents thought more effective mental health screening and treatment could have prevented the recent Florida shooting. 58 percent thought stricter gun control laws could have prevented it, and there is no increase in support for banning assault weapons (whatever the term "assault weapons" means today).
 

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That kind of polling is inherently dishonest IMHO because the respondents have been asked only about that particular incident, so if the perpetrator is thought to have been mentally off, saying that counseling or screening would or could have prevented "it" is a natural. If the weapon used was a certain kind of gun, then that's what should be banned, they'll say. If the shooter just walked into a store and bought the weapon, they'll say stricter gun laws, etc. In none of these cases will doing what's mentioned prevent other school shootings, but that's what how the replies are supposed to be interpreted.
 

tango

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That kind of polling is inherently dishonest IMHO because the respondents have been asked only about that particular incident, so if the perpetrator is thought to have been mentally off, saying that counseling or screening would or could have prevented "it" is a natural. If the weapon used was a certain kind of gun, then that's what should be banned, they'll say. If the shooter just walked into a store and bought the weapon, they'll say stricter gun laws, etc. In none of these cases will doing what's mentioned prevent other school shootings, but that's what how the replies are supposed to be interpreted.

There's certainly that possibility, but it's interesting that people are aware of the mental health issues apparently over and above the issue of gun control.

Given it's self-evident that preventing a killer from gaining access to whatever he used as a murder weapon would have prevented the killing (whether the killer is a gunman or a lunatic behind the wheel of a truck or the loner making pipe bombs in his basement), it's interesting to note that here the focus is apparently more on mental health than banning the choice of weapon.

I forget the political leanings of the WP and ABC news - it runs in my mind they are moderate left but maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong?
 

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There's certainly that possibility, but it's interesting that people are aware of the mental health issues apparently over and above the issue of gun control.
Don't you think that's mainly because the news media told us and told us that the shooter was mentally ill? The thought was already planted before the pollster asked about it.

Given it's self-evident that preventing a killer from gaining access to whatever he used as a murder weapon would have prevented the killing (whether the killer is a gunman or a lunatic behind the wheel of a truck or the loner making pipe bombs in his basement), it's interesting to note that here the focus is apparently more on mental health than banning the choice of weapon.
Again, that's almost totally because of the choice of questions that were asked.

I forget the political leanings of the WP and ABC news - it runs in my mind they are moderate left but maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong?
Far Left. Both of them.
 

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You didn't actually give an answer. I'm still waiting to find out what's so bad about an AR-15 that doesn't apply to, say, a Smith&Wesson M&P 9mm. I'm curious how fast you think an AR-15 actually fires, given your insistence that they shouldn't be allowed based on nothing more than a vague assertion that they kill people quickly (as if a 9mm in each hand wouldn't also kill quickly). You never replied when I asked what counted as "rapid fire" when you said that shouldn't be allowed, nor did you address how a gun for self-defense is any use if it takes a minute or more to reload it.

You also keep referring to the NRA without actually addressing any of the arguments. The fact the NRA says something doesn't make it right or wrong, and if the best you've got is to refer to the NRA without addressing the argument it suggests you can't actually address the argument. Using the same line of "reasoning" (I use the term in its loosest possible context here) one might write off your posts with nothing more than "ah yes, the usual Leftist approach".

Of course using reason and logic is more work than making emotional comments about who has blood on their hands.
Any weapon that fires as fast as you can pull a trigger is not acceptabel as a rifle. As for the 9 mm the range is not as great nor is accuracy over distance but yes it also fires rapidly. As for the NRA my oppposition to them comes from the fact that thye oppose any law controlling weapons or anything related no matter how common sense they are. As I said I am not against guns per se or even owning them but I am against what I have laid out as is many many others. I saw that today there were marchs in a lot of states asking for gun conrol and I know thta next month there will be a national march as well. I hope that lawmakers get some guts and do some common sense things.
 

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Any weapon that fires as fast as you can pull a trigger is not acceptabel as a rifle. As for the 9 mm the range is not as great nor is accuracy over distance but yes it also fires rapidly. As for the NRA my oppposition to them comes from the fact that thye oppose any law controlling weapons or anything related no matter how common sense they are. As I said I am not against guns per se or even owning them but I am against what I have laid out as is many many others. I saw that today there were marchs in a lot of states asking for gun conrol and I know thta next month there will be a national march as well. I hope that lawmakers get some guts and do some common sense things.

So what would you consider to be an acceptable rate of fire, especially given the need to use a weapon for self-defense as well as shooting at targets?

If I recall the NRA was not opposed to banning bump stocks (I read an article this afternoon that said Trump had taken executive action to ban them, and that also noted Obama declined to ban them). From what I can see the NRA opposes laws that are likely to prove ineffective.

You're still using a lot of vague terms like "do some common sense things". What exactly counts as a "common sense thing"? Some would say banning guns outright is a "common sense thing" while others would say allowing firearms in schools to avoid leaving them as soft targets is a "common sense thing". It sounds well and good but really does little other than say "anyone who disagrees with me is lacking".
 

tango

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I read another article on USA Today that looked at some statistics. On the face of it there has been a school shooting every week, on average, since 2013. But scratching the surface of the statistics tells a different story because some of those were things like one-person suicides that happened to be on school premises, accidental discharges, or shootings where nobody was injured at all.

It said the raw numbers indicate that, on average, 10 children die every year due to shootings at school. That's 10 too many without a doubt. But it also said that the number needed to be considered in context, because on average 100 children die every year due to accidents when bicycling or walking to school.
 

Stravinsk

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So what would you consider to be an acceptable rate of fire, especially given the need to use a weapon for self-defense as well as shooting at targets?

If I recall the NRA was not opposed to banning bump stocks (I read an article this afternoon that said Trump had taken executive action to ban them, and that also noted Obama declined to ban them). From what I can see the NRA opposes laws that are likely to prove ineffective.

You're still using a lot of vague terms like "do some common sense things". What exactly counts as a "common sense thing"? Some would say banning guns outright is a "common sense thing" while others would say allowing firearms in schools to avoid leaving them as soft targets is a "common sense thing". It sounds well and good but really does little other than say "anyone who disagrees with me is lacking".

Tango, you're conversing with someone who is likely just parroting the garbage corporate idiot box television they are addicted to. That's where those terms come from, pundits and opinion makers paid to push an agenda through their words, but the willingly hypnotized aren't even likely to know it consciously.

Anyone who watches corporate television is basically a willing participant in the hijacking of the their own mind.

Edit: Video contains some foul language about halfway through the clip. If this is a problem, I'll replace it with another as there are plenty out there. FYI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNV3_bS_0ts
 
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