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    Politics - Thread: age you can buy a gun

    1. #21
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      I'll support raising the age to buy a gun to defend life to 21 when they raise the age to buy an abortion to terminate life to 21....

      I'll support requiring a mental examination before buying a gun to defend life when they require a mental examination to buy an abortion to terminate life.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      The one that controls what they can buy and who can buy it. More closely monitor the sale of guns, up the penelties for possessing and illegal gun and for those selling them. As for the rest of it I have read it over and over in articles by the NRA, all a part of their effort to do away with any gun laws. And I dont hate guns, I have owned them and I respect them. They are useful and I dont object to reasonable ownership, I do object to weapons that can kill multiple people in such a short amount of time.
      OK, so what exactly do you suggest that prevents people who don't care about the law from breaking the law, while not intruding into the lives of the law-abiding? It's easy to say "the law that controls what they can buy" but without a more tangible suggestion it's just hot air.

      Increasing penalties is ineffective against people who don't plan to survive their atrocity. You also end up with all sorts of quirks in the law, whereby one could easily claim that a convicted felon could not be legally expected to disclose the fact they had an illegal firearm because to impose such a requirement would violate their 5th Amendment rights.

      I still maintain it would be far more useful to consider why people feel the urge to commit these atrocities in the first place, rather than fussing about the tool they choose to do it. Would the situation really be any better if some idiot was running around an elementary school swinging a meat cleaver?
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      OK, so what exactly do you suggest that prevents people who don't care about the law from breaking the law, while not intruding into the lives of the law-abiding? It's easy to say "the law that controls what they can buy" but without a more tangible suggestion it's just hot air.

      Increasing penalties is ineffective against people who don't plan to survive their atrocity. You also end up with all sorts of quirks in the law, whereby one could easily claim that a convicted felon could not be legally expected to disclose the fact they had an illegal firearm because to impose such a requirement would violate their 5th Amendment rights.

      I still maintain it would be far more useful to consider why people feel the urge to commit these atrocities in the first place, rather than fussing about the tool they choose to do it. Would the situation really be any better if some idiot was running around an elementary school swinging a meat cleaver?
      In answer to part of this. Background checks keep felons from buying guns and if they lie they go to jail, mentally ill could also be added to that list. As to having a meat cleaver or a knife or a club, yes it would be better becaue the damage would not be as great and two you could try to defend yourself against such and if he would have been so armed I feel sure he would have been stopped.
      Isaiah 40:31

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      In answer to part of this. Background checks keep felons from buying guns and if they lie they go to jail, mentally ill could also be added to that list. As to having a meat cleaver or a knife or a club, yes it would be better becaue the damage would not be as great and two you could try to defend yourself against such and if he would have been so armed I feel sure he would have been stopped.
      The background checks clearly didn't work in this instance so unless there's a specific suggestion beyond "do it better" it's hard to see how that is useful. The threat of jail is ineffective against someone who isn't expecting to even survive the atrocity they are planning. In any event, background checks stop convicted felons from buying a gun lawfully - there is only so much that can be done to disrupt the criminal underworld from moving weapons around. Hence the idea that the best course of action is to stop the bad guy getting a gun in the first place, once the bad guy has a gun (or other weapon that is deadly under the circumstances) the focus has to be on how to stop him as fast and effectively as possible.

      Do you really think people are going to be effective fighting back against a madman swinging a meat cleaver? Just what would have stopped him, pending the arrival of the police? Perhaps the body count would have been lower but if the best we can hope for is that not quite as many will die, or some that might have died will "only" suffer horrendous injuries, then the proposal clearly isn't for a particularly good solution. If he wasn't using a meat cleaver but was using a bagful of home made pipe bombs would that be better? What if it was home grown chemical weapons? It's really not that difficult to turn everyday household objects into something very dangerous. Still illegal, but then so is going into a school and shooting people.

      But let's assume we figure that at a high school someone is big enough to take down the madman, and bold enough to attempt it (or brazen enough to figure if they are going to die anyway they might as well go down fighting). Don't you think someone planning an atrocity is going to want to inflict maximum damage, so choose a weapon accordingly? If they are going to attack a high school where they might face people bigger and stronger than them (the equivalent of "a good guy with a gun" even if the good guy doesn't actually have a gun) they'll choose a weapon that can continue to inflict damage. Or they'll choose a softer target. How many elementary school children could fight back with any effect at all against an adult or late teenager with a meat cleaver?
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      The background checks clearly didn't work in this instance so unless there's a specific suggestion beyond "do it better" it's hard to see how that is useful. The threat of jail is ineffective against someone who isn't expecting to even survive the atrocity they are planning. In any event, background checks stop convicted felons from buying a gun lawfully - there is only so much that can be done to disrupt the criminal underworld from moving weapons around. Hence the idea that the best course of action is to stop the bad guy getting a gun in the first place, once the bad guy has a gun (or other weapon that is deadly under the circumstances) the focus has to be on how to stop him as fast and effectively as possible.

      Do you really think people are going to be effective fighting back against a madman swinging a meat cleaver? Just what would have stopped him, pending the arrival of the police? Perhaps the body count would have been lower but if the best we can hope for is that not quite as many will die, or some that might have died will "only" suffer horrendous injuries, then the proposal clearly isn't for a particularly good solution. If he wasn't using a meat cleaver but was using a bagful of home made pipe bombs would that be better? What if it was home grown chemical weapons? It's really not that difficult to turn everyday household objects into something very dangerous. Still illegal, but then so is going into a school and shooting people.

      But let's assume we figure that at a high school someone is big enough to take down the madman, and bold enough to attempt it (or brazen enough to figure if they are going to die anyway they might as well go down fighting). Don't you think someone planning an atrocity is going to want to inflict maximum damage, so choose a weapon accordingly? If they are going to attack a high school where they might face people bigger and stronger than them (the equivalent of "a good guy with a gun" even if the good guy doesn't actually have a gun) they'll choose a weapon that can continue to inflict damage. Or they'll choose a softer target. How many elementary school children could fight back with any effect at all against an adult or late teenager with a meat cleaver?
      How many teachers would be able to fight back might be a better question. But dont worry the NRA will have its way and absolutely nothing will be done yet once again. One day I hope that the ones who push this agenda will have to stand in front of God and present Him with the same arguments as to why they did nothing or opposed any meaningful legislation. I would love to hear Gods thoughts on that, I think it would be interesting
      Isaiah 40:31

    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      How many teachers would be able to fight back might be a better question. But dont worry the NRA will have its way and absolutely nothing will be done yet once again. One day I hope that the ones who push this agenda will have to stand in front of God and present Him with the same arguments as to why they did nothing or opposed any meaningful legislation. I would love to hear Gods thoughts on that, I think it would be interesting
      How about addressing the issue rather than sidetracking and blaming the NRA for everything?

      Switching around and wriggling like this does nothing to address the issue. But if you really want to go there, perhaps some people would like to stand before God and explain why they opposed legislation that might have stopped it earlier, thereby saving the lives of innocent children. Your argument here is little more than "we have to Do Something, this really badly flawed legislation is Doing Something, therefore we have to support it or we're part of the problem". Knee-jerk reactions generally aren't a good basis for sound legislation.

      Isn't it more useful to address what might be done, in a useful manner, to prevent things like this before they even start? It seems so much more useful than fussing over the weapon of choice once someone already reaches the stage that all they see going forward is taking out as many people as they can before they go down.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      How about addressing the issue rather than sidetracking and blaming the NRA for everything?

      Switching around and wriggling like this does nothing to address the issue. But if you really want to go there, perhaps some people would like to stand before God and explain why they opposed legislation that might have stopped it earlier, thereby saving the lives of innocent children. Your argument here is little more than "we have to Do Something, this really badly flawed legislation is Doing Something, therefore we have to support it or we're part of the problem". Knee-jerk reactions generally aren't a good basis for sound legislation.

      Isn't it more useful to address what might be done, in a useful manner, to prevent things like this before they even start? It seems so much more useful than fussing over the weapon of choice once someone already reaches the stage that all they see going forward is taking out as many people as they can before they go down.
      I am all for that but it has to include the fact that some weapons such as the AR 15 should not be made available to the general public. Things like limiting magazine size, types of weapons etc. Then and only then can anything meaningful be done. I am somewhere in the middle on this issue but I guess that is not enough to satisfy people who support no legislation at all. I am all for arming responsible teachers and so on but the rest of what I am saying is also pertinent
      Isaiah 40:31

    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      I am all for that but it has to include the fact that some weapons such as the AR 15 should not be made available to the general public. Things like limiting magazine size, types of weapons etc. Then and only then can anything meaningful be done. I am somewhere in the middle on this issue but I guess that is not enough to satisfy people who support no legislation at all. I am all for arming responsible teachers and so on but the rest of what I am saying is also pertinent
      Why should an AR-15 not be available to the general public? You're making some blind statements here without a shred of anything to support what you're saying. What's so bad about an AR-15 that doesn't apply to a whole host of other weapons?

      Limiting magazine size will achieve more or less nothing. Firstly criminals will simply keep their existing large capacity magazines, and secondly if you have any idea how fast you can reload a semi-automatic magazine you'd know that limiting the magazine size simply means your would-be killer needs a bunch more magazines (you can buy them over the counter at sports stores and if you're not planning to survive your attack you won't care if you run up a huge credit card bill buying them. We've all seen the likes of Keanu Reeves reloading his gun in the movies and, if anything, it's slowed down for artistic effect. When I was out shooting with a couple of friends in the US I was curious to see how fast I could reload, based on virtually no prior experience, and within a couple of magazines I could reload as fast as they do in the movies. I'm reliably informed that more serious shooters can reload so fast that if you were measuring the time between shots you'd struggle to tell which shots had the reload in between.

      The type of weapons people can own is already limited. You can't buy a fully automatic weapon without additional licensing and even then they are hideously expensive. A friend of a friend has a fully automatic rifle, with appropriate licensing, and reckoned it was worth somewhere north of $10,000. If you want to argue that the types of weapon that people can own should be limited how about coming up with some concrete suggestions for what should be banned, why it should be banned, and how to objectively differentiate between an acceptable and an unacceptable weapon. Otherwise all you have is the typical bleating about "assault weapons" without even the faintest hint of what defines an "assault weapon".
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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    10. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      I am all for that but it has to include the fact that some weapons such as the AR 15 should not be made available to the general public. Things like limiting magazine size, types of weapons etc. Then and only then can anything meaningful be done. I am somewhere in the middle on this issue but I guess that is not enough to satisfy people who support no legislation at all. I am all for arming responsible teachers and so on but the rest of what I am saying is also pertinent
      At first the idea of arming teachers sounded good to me, but after thinking about it and being in a few schools and seeing how chaotic it is I doubt it would help. I would think it would make it easier for some kids who have problems with their temper to reach out in anger and get their teachers gun and start shooting. And kids have outbursts at schools on a daily basis now, especially in some of the alternative schools

    11. #30
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      Arming teachers is scary, they would be like body guards and im not sure they would even accept such responsibilities and not only that but it could make problems worse.

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