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    Politics - Thread: age you can buy a gun

    1. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      As I understand it (and I ain't saying that's saying much), ANYONE - of any age and in any country - with access to the internet, can buy all the parts of any gun, and then just assemble them. Thus circumventing all gun laws and registration. With the internet being international and with no significant regulation, I'm not sure there's much that can be done about that?

      IF it were as simple as making tougher gun laws, then Detriot MI and Washington DC would have the lowest murder rates in the land.... they have the highest.

      I'm all in favor of laws (AND DOING SOMETHING WITH THEM) to keep guns out of those mentally irresponsible... the problem is, there are going to be failures. And it only takes one.



      The REAL PROBLEM in my opinion is not people having weapons. The problem is two-fold:

      1. Mental illness. It's not always easy to detect and many never even are examined until AFTER something like this happens. And (for understandable reasons and because of our American obsession with privacy) they are typically not publicly identified. And we can't institutionalize or generally restrict them so they generally can do and go where they want. Well people don't go around shooting kids (or anyone else for that matter). We need to get a better handle on mental illness in our land.

      2. A culture of death. Gun laws in the USA are not a good indicator. The states with the LEAST laws (Utah for example) actually tend to have less gun violance than other states. Washington DC, Detroit MI have the strickest gun laws in the USA and the highest gun violance rates. Some conclusion might be drawn from that about gun laws..... But I think the problem has little to do with gun laws and a LOT to do with the culture. We have sub-cultures in our society which are violent. And there are some things about American culture (witness the films, the video games, even the sport of football). What's happening in places like Detroit and Washington DC and downtown LA and way too many other places has nothing to do with the law (because there is a culture that is lawless), it has to do with a culture of death, a culture that has little respect for life (even their own in some cases). Consider that while in steady decline, a goodly percentage of INNOCENT unborn children are violently murdered - right up to the time when the last toe exists the birth canal - and our society is perfectly okay with that. We will continue to raise up Americans with little to no value to life as long as that reflects our culture.



      - Josiah
      And probably the worst of those effected by mental health are undiagnosed anyway, so there is no record of it.

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Remember that Chicago and Washington, DC have among the most stringent gun control laws you'll find anywhere in the country--and also the most gun deaths. Obviously, those gun laws didn't curb the killings, so why would they do so in Florida?
      so what do you recommend? Doing nothing?

    3. #13
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      If bullets were priced heavily for public use (self defense situations) it would be more expensive for someone to shoot someone randomly or chaotic, and for private use (hunting game) it should be for certain hunting areas and access to bullets would be only through a state licensed or government employee and at a drastically lower costs, you can also return all bullets unused for a refund on them.
      I personally don't like guns and have never owned one and the issue is always about defense or destroy, make destroy harder to reach

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      I believe in the right of gun ownership but thqta being said noone needs an AR15 to shoot bambi, there needs to be common sense laws in place to help keep these things from happening. First the NRA should be banned from lobbying as they are the single biggest roadblock to any meaningful legislation. When ios enough going to be enough or should we just allow everyone to have guns so we can kill each other more effectively
      The trouble with "nobody needs a ..." is that it ever stops. How many people need a V8 in their pickup, yet nobody proposes banning them. Nobody needs a big house with lots of space but many people choose to have them. Nobody needs a 32oz steak but nobody is proposing banning them.

      If the NRA is to be banned from lobbying then the likes of Michael Bloomberg and George Soros should also be banned. If anything it just feeds into the libertarian approach that government should be very small, to remove the benefit from lobbying in the first place.

      Sadly much of the whining is based on such obvious fiction it's almost laughable. I saw one "discussion" where people were wondering why anyone could justify owning a gun that could fire hundreds of rounds per minute. Er.... what? Nothing the average person can legally own fires hundreds of rounds a minute. Even a fully automatic rifle doesn't fire that many rounds per minute. If you've got something like a gattling gun you could but these people are talking about an AR-15 with a bump stock. I've fired a fully automatic rifle and reckon that, assuming you didn't run out of ammo and have to reload it, you might get 80-90 rounds per minute, assuming it didn't overheat and jam first. Your average semi-automatic handgun might fire a round every second or so if you're good, or if you're not too worried about aiming it. Then after probably 15-20 rounds you need to reload.

      It's easy to ask things like "when do we say enough is enough?" but we might ask the same question of deaths on our roads. When do we say enough is enough and ban the motor vehicle? Deaths on the road are comparable to deaths from firearms, the key difference is that deaths from firearms include justified homicide whereas deaths on the roads have no such concept.

      A lot of people like to comment about "assault rifles" but the people who want to ban them can't even define them. Unless you can objectively define what differentiates an "assault rifle" from a regular rifle you can't ban one without banning the other, unless you want to get into really silly situations like the law in Pennsylvania that prohibits daggers but doesn't define what a dagger actually is.

      I know some will claim I'm just being a mouthpiece for the NRA here but it is curious to note that when a shooting happens in a gun free zone the left claims the answer is more gun free zones. When someone has already demonstrated a total disregard for the law against taking a gun into a school, and a total disregard for the law against killing people, it's hard to see what extra laws would actually stop them. When someone doesn't care about the law the thing most likely to stop them is the credible threat of being stopped by someone else, most likely someone else with a gun.

      In many ways the issue of guns is an issue of equality. In London when some terrorists drove a van onto the sidewalk and ran over a load of people, then jumped out with knives, the official advice for such situations was "run, hide, tell". In other words, run away, hide somewhere, and tell someone. Someone clearly means the police, assuming they have the manpower to respond. If you're slow on your feet, mobility impaired etc, too bad. No running for you, you're at the mercy of the bad guys and there's nothing you can do. In an area where people are more routinely armed the advice might be "drop, draw, fire". If you're mobility impaired, not a problem, you can still fight back when you have a gun on hand. If you're desperately trying to find somewhere to reach to get away from the madness but everywhere is locked, you've got a sporting chance. If you're a young girl fighting a 280-pound man with a knife, you've got a sporting chance. If you're an 87-year-old man dealing with a young thug with a knife, you've got a sporting chance. Take away the guns and you simply leave the weak at the mercy of the strong.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    5. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      If bullets were priced heavily for public use (self defense situations) it would be more expensive for someone to shoot someone randomly or chaotic, and for private use (hunting game) it should be for certain hunting areas and access to bullets would be only through a state licensed or government employee and at a drastically lower costs, you can also return all bullets unused for a refund on them.
      I personally don't like guns and have never owned one and the issue is always about defense or destroy, make destroy harder to reach

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
      The trouble is that for a gun to be effective as a defensive tool you need to practise with it every once in a while. It's not much good to have a gun with 10 bullets because they are so expensive, so you never train, so when you do need it to defend yourself you find you're so out of practice you couldn't hit a barn from the inside.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    6. #16
      DHoffmann's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      The trouble is that for a gun to be effective as a defensive tool you need to practise with it every once in a while. It's not much good to have a gun with 10 bullets because they are so expensive, so you never train, so when you do need it to defend yourself you find you're so out of practice you couldn't hit a barn from the inside.
      Practice? To shoot another person? Use blanks or a pellet gun to practise, on a doll.
      Its almost impossible for ideas like such to get past legislation. The people are always sold short but again, i will never handle a gun nor have I tried or practised firing one, so my say is not even considered anyway.

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

    7. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Practice? To shoot another person? Use blanks or a pellet gun to practise, on a doll.
      Its almost impossible for ideas like such to get past legislation. The people are always sold short but again, i will never handle a gun nor have I tried or practised firing one, so my say is not even considered anyway.

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
      To practise with a firearm you need to use the firearm in question. An AR-15 handles very differently to a pellet gun. You don't need to shoot people to practise, but you do need to fire at an actual target.

      Firing with live bullets results in a much higher degree of recoil, it makes a lot more noise, you may get flashes of light from the muzzle - all things that you don't get with a pellet gun.

      I don't have a problem with sensible legislation, but much of the proposed legislation is anything but sensible. The gun crime rate in areas where guns are banned is pretty solid evidence of that, if nothing else.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    8. #18
      Josiah's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post


      The REAL PROBLEM in my opinion is not people having weapons. The problem is two-fold:

      1. Mental illness. It's not always easy to detect and many never even are examined until AFTER something like this happens. And (for understandable reasons and because of our American obsession with privacy) they are typically not publicly identified. And we can't institutionalize or generally restrict them so they generally can do and go where they want. Well people don't go around shooting kids (or anyone else for that matter). We need to get a better handle on mental illness in our land.

      2. A culture of death. Gun laws in the USA are not a good indicator. The states with the LEAST laws (Utah for example) actually tend to have less gun violance than other states. Washington DC, Detroit MI have the strickest gun laws in the USA and the highest gun violance rates. Some conclusion might be drawn from that about gun laws..... But I think the problem has little to do with gun laws and a LOT to do with the culture. We have sub-cultures in our society which are violent. And there are some things about American culture (witness the films, the video games, even the sport of football). What's happening in places like Detroit and Washington DC and downtown LA and way too many other places has nothing to do with the law (because there is a culture that is lawless), it has to do with a culture of death, a culture that has little respect for life (even their own in some cases). Consider that while in steady decline, a goodly percentage of INNOCENT unborn children are violently murdered - right up to the time when the last toe exists the birth canal - and our society is perfectly okay with that. We will continue to raise up Americans with little to no value to life as long as that reflects our culture.



      .

      https://www.care-net.org/abundant-li...hoice-telethon


      I think here is a MAJOR part of this issue no one wants to admit.....


      We have a whole culture of death, where human life (especially of the weak and defenseless) is not only minimized but even made fun of. It's legal for a 12-year-old (sane or otherwise) to kill an unborn child, no one protests, no one says she should be at least 21, no one says she should be mentally sane, no one says she should be educated or licensed, it's all defend and yes the whole thing LAUGHED at.... but if she wants a gun to protect a life, well there is all kinds of demands that she be at least 21, be mentally sane, be trained, be registered and licenced, etc., etc., etc. People are horrified when 17 school children are killed (as they should be) and defend and laugh over 50 MILLION babies being killed... We make FUN of that, comedians make comedy skits about it, Mark Hamel goes around with a light saver to kill babies and people laugh their heads off.

      There's something SICK in our post-modern world..... and it means innocent people are being killed.



      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 02-17-2018 at 10:14 AM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    9. #19
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      Another aspect is that people are very prone to look at everything bad about the things they happen to dislike. 17 people get killed by guns and the uproar starts about why guns are bad, why they should be restricted if not banned and confiscated, and so on. How many people die on the roads? How many other people suffer health issues from exhaust emissions? Where is the uproar about banning motor vehicles? The people who like to bleat "if it saves just one life it's worth it" obviously don't truly believe it, or they'd have cars in their sights as well as guns.

      Looking at the depressingly predictable whines from the different political outlooks:

      "The solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" is oversimplified, not least because it would be better if the bad guy didn't have a gun in the first place. But expanding on the meme it makes a lot of sense - if the bad guy has a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, a meat cleaver, a brick, or even just good old fashioned fists and feet - the solution is a good guy who is able to stop him. Even the most extreme proponents of gun bans would have to agree, simply because their solution would be to call the police (in other words, a good guy who is able to stop the bad guy).

      The people proposing ever more legislation have more questions to answer. Since the shooter already ignored the law that bans taking firearms into a school and already ignored the law that bans killing people, just what law do people propose that would actually be effective against someone who clearly doesn't care about breaking the law?

      Taking this line further, let's assume it were an option to confiscate all handguns, and let's assume that every criminal stood in line to turn in their guns, and let's assume that Mexican cartels were prevented from smuggling any more guns and so on. So now we've got a country with no guns except in the hands of the police and the military. What happens now? The same process that currently leads someone to run amok in a school with rifles and handguns isn't going to go away, it's just more likely they'll run amok in a school with a meat cleaver or some such. Are we really in a better place with some goon running around an elementary school swinging a meat cleaver? Is the body count going to be significantly reduced? Perhaps they won't kill as many, perhaps they will, but is it really a success story when the guy who might have killed 23 children with a gun "only" kills 18 with a meat cleaver and inflicts lifelong injuries on others? And if it isn't a meat cleaver it will be a Bowie knife, or a sword, or a bag of home made pipe bombs, or whatever else the goon of the day figures he can use for maximum impact.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    10. #20
      psalms 91's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      Another aspect is that people are very prone to look at everything bad about the things they happen to dislike. 17 people get killed by guns and the uproar starts about why guns are bad, why they should be restricted if not banned and confiscated, and so on. How many people die on the roads? How many other people suffer health issues from exhaust emissions? Where is the uproar about banning motor vehicles? The people who like to bleat "if it saves just one life it's worth it" obviously don't truly believe it, or they'd have cars in their sights as well as guns.

      Looking at the depressingly predictable whines from the different political outlooks:

      "The solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" is oversimplified, not least because it would be better if the bad guy didn't have a gun in the first place. But expanding on the meme it makes a lot of sense - if the bad guy has a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, a meat cleaver, a brick, or even just good old fashioned fists and feet - the solution is a good guy who is able to stop him. Even the most extreme proponents of gun bans would have to agree, simply because their solution would be to call the police (in other words, a good guy who is able to stop the bad guy).

      The people proposing ever more legislation have more questions to answer. Since the shooter already ignored the law that bans taking firearms into a school and already ignored the law that bans killing people, just what law do people propose that would actually be effective against someone who clearly doesn't care about breaking the law?

      Taking this line further, let's assume it were an option to confiscate all handguns, and let's assume that every criminal stood in line to turn in their guns, and let's assume that Mexican cartels were prevented from smuggling any more guns and so on. So now we've got a country with no guns except in the hands of the police and the military. What happens now? The same process that currently leads someone to run amok in a school with rifles and handguns isn't going to go away, it's just more likely they'll run amok in a school with a meat cleaver or some such. Are we really in a better place with some goon running around an elementary school swinging a meat cleaver? Is the body count going to be significantly reduced? Perhaps they won't kill as many, perhaps they will, but is it really a success story when the guy who might have killed 23 children with a gun "only" kills 18 with a meat cleaver and inflicts lifelong injuries on others? And if it isn't a meat cleaver it will be a Bowie knife, or a sword, or a bag of home made pipe bombs, or whatever else the goon of the day figures he can use for maximum impact.
      The one that controls what they can buy and who can buy it. More closely monitor the sale of guns, up the penelties for possessing and illegal gun and for those selling them. As for the rest of it I have read it over and over in articles by the NRA, all a part of their effort to do away with any gun laws. And I dont hate guns, I have owned them and I respect them. They are useful and I dont object to reasonable ownership, I do object to weapons that can kill multiple people in such a short amount of time.
      Isaiah 40:31

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