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    Politics - Thread: age you can buy a gun

    1. #1
      jsimms435's Avatar
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      age you can buy a gun

      I wonder if changing the requirements to buy a gun would help with all the shootings? This kid who bought this AK-15 was 19 years old and purchased it legally. Yet, he can't buy alcohol. I wonder if raising the age to buy a gun to 21 would help? I think there should be classes for people who buy guns to take care of them properly. One thing we don'thear much of is how many kids die from just finding a gun in the home and playing with it and it accidentially discharging and killing someone. If guns and ammunition were stored separately under lock and key that wouldn't happen.

    2. #2
      Josiah's Avatar
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      As I understand it (and I ain't saying that's saying much), ANYONE - of any age and in any country - with access to the internet, can buy all the parts of any gun, and then just assemble them. Thus circumventing all gun laws and registration. With the internet being international and with no significant regulation, I'm not sure there's much that can be done about that?

      IF it were as simple as making tougher gun laws, then Detriot MI and Washington DC would have the lowest murder rates in the land.... they have the highest.

      I'm all in favor of laws (AND DOING SOMETHING WITH THEM) to keep guns out of those mentally irresponsible... the problem is, there are going to be failures. And it only takes one.



      The REAL PROBLEM in my opinion is not people having weapons. The problem is two-fold:

      1. Mental illness. It's not always easy to detect and many never even are examined until AFTER something like this happens. And (for understandable reasons and because of our American obsession with privacy) they are typically not publicly identified. And we can't institutionalize or generally restrict them so they generally can do and go where they want. Well people don't go around shooting kids (or anyone else for that matter). We need to get a better handle on mental illness in our land.

      2. A culture of death. Gun laws in the USA are not a good indicator. The states with the LEAST laws (Utah for example) actually tend to have less gun violance than other states. Washington DC, Detroit MI have the strickest gun laws in the USA and the highest gun violance rates. Some conclusion might be drawn from that about gun laws..... But I think the problem has little to do with gun laws and a LOT to do with the culture. We have sub-cultures in our society which are violent. And there are some things about American culture (witness the films, the video games, even the sport of football). What's happening in places like Detroit and Washington DC and downtown LA and way too many other places has nothing to do with the law (because there is a culture that is lawless), it has to do with a culture of death, a culture that has little respect for life (even their own in some cases). Consider that while in steady decline, a goodly percentage of INNOCENT unborn children are violently murdered - right up to the time when the last toe exists the birth canal - and our society is perfectly okay with that. We will continue to raise up Americans with little to no value to life as long as that reflects our culture.



      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    4. #3
      tango's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      I wonder if changing the requirements to buy a gun would help with all the shootings? This kid who bought this AK-15 was 19 years old and purchased it legally. Yet, he can't buy alcohol. I wonder if raising the age to buy a gun to 21 would help? I think there should be classes for people who buy guns to take care of them properly. One thing we don'thear much of is how many kids die from just finding a gun in the home and playing with it and it accidentially discharging and killing someone. If guns and ammunition were stored separately under lock and key that wouldn't happen.
      I find it odd that the US allows someone to buy a gun at 18, to marry at 18, to be allowed to join the military (and indeed to be forcibly conscripted) at 18, but not to have a beer until 21.

      One issue is that a simple "one size fits all" approach just doesn't work. If you have children in your home you have to be responsible for them, which includes making sure they can't open your closet and play with your loaded guns. But if you don't have children in your home why should you be obligated to take childproofing precautions for your guns?

      As far as helping with the shootings goes, I'm not sure that there is much that can be done. Typically after an event like this there is the predictable political whining from the left that we need tighter gun control (despite the fact it's already illegal to take a gun into a school and it's already illegal to kill people, so the shooter already broke two laws and probably wouldn't care about breaking another one along the way), and equally predictable comments from the right that the answer to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

      Looking at simple facts, shootings in schools are safe for the shooter because they can be assured it is very unlikely anyone will have the means to stop them. So in that regard, and given it's proving impossible to physically stop people taking guns into schools, maybe the answer is to allow (maybe encourage?) teaching staff to carry weapons of their own.

      In principle introducing a legal requirement to take some form of training before buying a gun makes some sense but there are still endless questions relating to enforcement of it, and relating to maintenance of it. If you take a training course at age 21, buy a collection of guns and keep then for 50 years, are you still "trained" to handle guns at the age of 71?

      Of course one major issue is that once someone has decided they are going to go and kill a lot of people, the chances are they will find a way whatever legal obstacles might be thought up in some far-flung city. If they can't buy a gun they can probably find one. Or they can make pipe bombs, as the two perpetrators of Columbine did. Or they can use a motor vehicle, as has been seen multiple times in Europe. Or they can make a toxic gas, as has been seen in underground transit around the world. Or they can use knives, axes etc, as has been seen in Europe. The fundamental trouble is the intention to kill rather than the choice of weapon to achieve the goal. Once someone has reached the stage of wanting to do such a thing the battle is already lost. We'd be better off trying to figure why people reach that point than worrying about the weapons of choice once they have reached it.

      If guns and ammunition are stored separately and in separate locked boxes it means they are of little to no value for home defense. If someone breaks into your home you want to be able to reach your loaded weapon quickly, not fuss with trying to unlock one box in the dark to get your gun, to then unlock another box to get the ammo, to then load the gun, and hope you managed to do it all before it's too late.

      Although a child dying from self-inflicted gunshot wounds in the home (or from gunshot wounds inflicted accidentally by another child playing with a gun) is a tragedy I'm not sure it warrants attention over and above a child dying from any other seemingly avoidable cause in the home. Is a child dying because they found Daddy's gun and shot themselves with it any more of an issue than the same child dying because he found Daddy's painkillers and ate them all thinking they were candy, or dying because he found a bottle of bleach and drank it, or dying because he opened the window and jumped out thinking his Superman cape meant he could fly? Ultimately it comes back to parental supervision, and only the parents are adequately placed to assess the risks in their home and figure what precautions need to be taken to protect their children.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    5. #4
      Albion's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      I wonder if changing the requirements to buy a gun would help with all the shootings? This kid who bought this AK-15 was 19 years old and purchased it legally. Yet, he can't buy alcohol. I wonder if raising the age to buy a gun to 21 would help? I think there should be classes for people who buy guns to take care of them properly. One thing we don'thear much of is how many kids die from just finding a gun in the home and playing with it and it accidentially discharging and killing someone. If guns and ammunition were stored separately under lock and key that wouldn't happen.
      Remember that Chicago and Washington, DC have among the most stringent gun control laws you'll find anywhere in the country--and also the most gun deaths. Obviously, those gun laws didn't curb the killings, so why would they do so in Florida?

    6. #5
      tango's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Remember that Chicago and Washington, DC have among the most stringent gun control laws you'll find anywhere in the country--and also the most gun deaths. Obviously, those gun laws didn't curb the killings, so why would they do so in Florida?
      This seems like a good example of correlations not working the way one might expect.

      If it was as simple as "more guns make society safer" than South Africa would be a great place to live. If it was as simple as "more guns make society less safe" then Switzerland would be a bloodbath. For that matter, most of the US would be a bloodbath, given the number of lawfully held firearms. I read somewhere that estimates for the number of lawfully held firearms in the US ranged from 250-500 million.

      The bit that seems to get missed in much of the howling is the clue in the term "law-abiding gun owners". Despite those who prefer to focus exclusively on the second part, the first part is more important.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    7. #6
      Krissy Cakes's Avatar
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      I also think it should be AT LEAST 21 if not later.



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    8. #7
      Krissy Cakes's Avatar
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      They also need to do a LONG background check to make sure the person doesn't have any kind of mental issues.



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    9. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Krissy Cakes View Post
      They also need to do a LONG background check to make sure the person doesn't have any kind of mental issues.
      Background checks also need to be done in a way that doesn't discourage people from being tested for things if they have concerns about their own health.

      Some years ago in the UK if you applied for health insurance one of the questions was whether you had ever been tested for HIV. The question didn't care what the result was, merely whether or not you had been tested. The reasoning was presumably that if you were concerned enough to be tested you probably had a lifestyle that exposed you to the risk of HIV, and therefore your premiums went up. Of course it meant that the more promiscuous members of the gay community (at the time HIV was largely confined to the gay community) were discouraged from being tested. It was subsequently changed to ask whether you had ever tested positive for HIV.

      I believe some states require individuals with a license to use medical marijuana to turn in their guns while others regard a senior needing help balancing their checkbook to be mentally incompetent and therefore unfit to own a gun. Both situation seem to do little to promote public safety while doing much to discourage people seeking the help they need.

      Of course other problems with relying on ever-more government checks are that the government isn't always very good at doing the checks, and that they tend to encourage people to disengage their own brains and simply assume Nanny State did whatever was necessary. If someone displays signs of a serious mental illness but passed government checks, what happens if someone tries to report concerns? After all they just passed a background check so they must be OK, right?
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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      I believe in the right of gun ownership but thqta being said noone needs an AR15 to shoot bambi, there needs to be common sense laws in place to help keep these things from happening. First the NRA should be banned from lobbying as they are the single biggest roadblock to any meaningful legislation. When ios enough going to be enough or should we just allow everyone to have guns so we can kill each other more effectively
      Isaiah 40:31

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      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      I wonder if some people will ever value integrity of the source from which they get their information over the entertainment value that source also provides.

      Exhibit 1:


      Exhibit 2:
      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ycs/edit#gid=0
      Source: UNDOC and Small arms survey

      Exhibit 3:


      Confused?
      Go back to Exhibit 1. Watch and pay very close attention to 1:24-1:37.
      That's you.

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