Does Jesus Hate Children?

Josiah

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In another thread, there is a theme that Jesus generally excluded children from His desire to bless...


Let's see what the Bible itself says about Jesus and children....

Mark 10:13-16

Mark 10:15

Matthew 18:2-4

Luke 9:47-48

Matthew 18:10

Mark 7:24-30

Mark 9:14-27

John 4:46-52



What impression do YOU get?

+ Does Jesus tend to shun or exclude little children?

+ Is the focus of Jesus' concern and ministry limited to those over a certain age or only to those who FIRST publicly document their choice of Him as their personal Savior?

+ Does Jesus indicate that children are excluded from His love, blessings and directives? That children are unable to be blessed by God, that children outside the realm of His ministry and ours, that children cannot be given faith (see also Luke 1:15, Luke 1:41-44)? When we look at the directives of God, must we assume that Jesus of course excludes children?



Thank you!



- Josiah




.
 
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atpollard

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(see also Luke 1:15, Luke 1:41-44)
Imagine that, God was able to bless John without the need for his parents to first get him baptized!

So why can't God do that to Lutheran children? :dunno:
 

atpollard

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Mark 7:24-30
24 Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. 25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 28 But she answered and said to Him, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children’s crumbs.” 29 And He said to her, “Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter.” 30 And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left.

[Jesus reluctantly HEALED the daughter.]


Mark 9:14-27
14 When they came back to the disciples, they saw a large crowd around them, and some scribes arguing with them. 15 Immediately, when the entire crowd saw Him, they were amazed and began running up to greet Him. 16 And He asked them, “What are you discussing with them?” 17 And one of the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought You my son, possessed with a spirit which makes him mute; 18 and [fn]whenever it seizes him, it [fn]slams him to the ground and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth and [fn]stiffens out. I told Your disciples to cast it out, and they could not do it.” 19 And He *answered them and *said, “O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!” 20 They brought [fn]the boy to Him. When he saw Him, immediately the spirit threw him into a convulsion, and falling to the ground, he began rolling around and foaming at the mouth. 21 And He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22 It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!” 23 And Jesus said to him, “ ‘If You can?’ All things are possible to him who believes.” 24 Immediately the boy’s father cried out and said, “I do believe; help my unbelief.” 25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You deaf and mute spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again.” 26 After crying out and throwing him into terrible convulsions, it came out; and the boy became so much like a corpse that most of them said, “He is dead!” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and raised him; and he got up.

[Jesus willingly HEALED the son.]


John 4:46-52
46 Therefore He came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a royal official whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and was imploring Him to come down and heal his son; for he was at the point of death. 48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.” 49 The royal official *said to Him, “Sir, come down before my child dies.” 50 Jesus *said to him, “Go; your son lives.” The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and started off. 51 As he was now going down, his slaves met him, saying that his son was living. 52 So he inquired of them the hour when he began to get better. Then they said to him, “Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.”

[Jesus HEALED the boy from a distance.]


Mark 2:1-12
1 When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home. 2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them. 3 And they *came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men. 4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying. 5 And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, *said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? 10 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—He *said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.” 12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

[Jesus FORGAVE SIN and HEALED the man.]


Why did Jesus HEAL the body, but not FORGIVE the sin of the children?
Why did Jesus FORGIVE and HEAL the man?
 

Josiah

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Imagine that, God was able to bless John without the need for his parents to first get him baptized!

I'm not the one telling God what He cannot do.... I'm not the one telling what what He can and cannot do for children.


So why can't God do that to Lutheran children?


Can! Again, I'm not the one insisting on what God cannot do for children and thus prohibiting them and keeping them from the things Jesus commanded us to do. But here's a point where we clearly disagree: While I affirm that God CAN act purely by fiat (without any means or action whatsoever - just snap His finger and presto - a believer), I don't believe that He commanded us to go and baptize and teach because those things hinder him or make Him impotent to save. The Bible says, "My word does not return to me void but accomplishes all for which I sent it." WHO preaches/teaches the word? People do! People who love and care for the lost, people who have a passion for the lost as Jesus did, people who know God can use the things he's commanded us to do! Over and over, people are PRAISED in the Bible for teaching - but rebuked because this makes God impotent to bless or give or save. Yes, God CAN save that isolated man in the Philippines but Jesus never said: LEAVE HIM ALONE or else you'll make me impotent!" He said Go.... baptize.... teach..... He said to love and care and share - not ignore and keep them away from the things of God. Just because God CAN work immediately by fiat does not mean He misspoke when He so stressed ministry, reaching out, teaching, baptizing, loving.

There is an assumption among that of course Jesus would NOT reach out to children, He would exclude them... so UNLESS it specifically states, "OH, by the way, I'm not excluding children here!" then we should ASSUME Jesus is excluding children. Sorry..... I see NOTHING in the ministry of Jesus that shows Him disparaging and exclusive of Children, wanting them excluded from ministry and the things of God. I see no more reason to assume and speculate that Jesus doesn't want children blessed anymore than to assume He doesn't want blonde haired people blessed (less so, we have examples of children blessed in the Bible by Jesus but no blondes).


I think SO many Scriptures (I just gave a few) shows Jesus loving children - even suggesting they are MORE open to faith and God's blessings than adults.



- Josiah
 

popsthebuilder

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I'm not the one telling God what He cannot do.... I'm not the one telling what what He can and cannot do for children.





Can! Again, I'm not the one insisting on what God cannot do for children and thus prohibiting them and keeping them from the things Jesus commanded us to do. But here's a point where we clearly disagree: While I affirm that God CAN act purely by fiat (without any means or action whatsoever - just snap His finger and presto - a believer), I don't believe that He commanded us to go and baptize and teach because those things hinder him or make Him impotent to save. The Bible says, "My word does not return to me void but accomplishes all for which I sent it." WHO preaches/teaches the word? People do! People who love and care for the lost, people who have a passion for the lost as Jesus did, people who know God can use the things he's commanded us to do! Over and over, people are PRAISED in the Bible for teaching - but rebuked because this makes God impotent to bless or give or save. Yes, God CAN save that isolated man in the Philippines but Jesus never said: LEAVE HIM ALONE or else you'll make me impotent!" He said Go.... baptize.... teach..... He said to love and care and share - not ignore and keep them away from the things of God. Just because God CAN work immediately by fiat does not mean He misspoke when He so stressed ministry, reaching out, teaching, baptizing, loving.

There is an assumption among that of course Jesus would NOT reach out to children, He would exclude them... so UNLESS it specifically states, "OH, by the way, I'm not excluding children here!" then we should ASSUME Jesus is excluding children. Sorry..... I see NOTHING in the ministry of Jesus that shows Him disparaging and exclusive of Children, wanting them excluded from ministry and the things of God. I see no more reason to assume and speculate that Jesus doesn't want children blessed anymore than to assume He doesn't want blonde haired people blessed (less so, we have examples of children blessed in the Bible by Jesus but no blondes).


I think SO many Scriptures (I just gave a few) shows Jesus loving children - even suggesting they are MORE open to faith and God's blessings than adults.



- Josiah
Children are the most blessed I think. Innocence and ignorance are not condemned regardless of sort or age of baptism or no baptism at all.

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Lamb

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There's history concerning how children were treated in ancient days...they weren't looked upon highly like how we adore our children and oh look at what Johnnie just did, etc... They valued their sons but needed them to be old enough to help work. Children were viewed as weak burdens on society and history shows that the Jews were all about community and providing as a unit instead of focusing on the individual.

With this background in mind, it was important that Jesus showed his love for children. Even Paul understood when he proclaimed that baptism isn't just for adults but their children too!
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Imagine that, God was able to bless John without the need for his parents to first get him baptized!

So why can't God do that to Lutheran children? :dunno:

Or repent... So why can't God do that for any child?
 

atpollard

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Or repent... So why can't God do that for any child?

GOD can. My complaint has always been that scripture places “believe, repent and baptism” all together and MEN should not separate them by “baptizing” without “repentance” (God alone can supply the belief).
 

MennoSota

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Even Paul understood when he proclaimed that baptism isn't just for adults but their children too!
Do you have a specific scripture verse where Paul says baptism is for infants too? I'm curious what your prooftext is.
 

Josiah

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My complaint has always been that scripture places “believe, repent and baptism” all together .


Okay.... But that's not the issue.

The traditional view is that they go together, but the Anabaptist view is that the Bible states they are separate and that there is a divinely commanded SEQUENCE to them, some are prerequisites to others, God can't use them if they are not in a certain chronological order, it is specifically stated in the Bible that we are divinely forbidden to not give these in this specific sequence that the Anabaptists came up with in the 16th Century; the dogmatic insistence that FIRST must come X and then when that is completed, finished and done, THEN we are released from prohibition and we may now address Y, THEN when Y is entirely completed and finished, the prohibition of Z is lifted in the divinely mandated order.... THAT'S the issue we have been discussing for some weeks in several threads now, several of us with you and MennoSota. We traditionalists disagree with your Anabaptism claim concerning this divinely mandated chronological sequence that this guy in 1523 invented. It's the traditional view that several things are all together, it's the Anabaptist view that they are one at a time and that the Bible specifically states the mandates chronological sequence which we are FORBIDDEN to not follow. Thus their two primary points: Anti-Paedobaptism and Credobaptism, etc., etc., etc., etc.



- Josiah




.
 
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atpollard

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Do you have a specific scripture verse where Paul says baptism is for infants too? I'm curious what your prooftext is.

I think she has 1 Corinthians 1:16 (Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.) in mind.
She DID say “adults and their children” which suggestests that she has the “and their household” type verses in mind.
 

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I think she has 1 Corinthians 1:16 (Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.) in mind.
She DID say “adults and their children” which suggestests that she has the “and their household” type verses in mind.

Households also included any servants and slaves as well as their families. They were very community minded, it wasn't about self.
 

atpollard

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Households also included any servants and slaves as well as their families. They were very community minded, it wasn't about self.

We take it for granted that Jesus loved children, but why was Jesus so reluctant to heal a non-Jewish child? Did Jesus only love Jewish Children? (Those under the OT Covenant with God?)

Mark 7:24-30
24 Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. 25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 28 But she answered and said to Him, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children’s crumbs.” 29 And He said to her, “Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter.” 30 And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left.

[I am making no claims, I am only pointing out a scripture verse that does not show Jesus falling over himself to help a child.]
 

psalms 91

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Jesus was sent to the Jewish nation and as a people, it was not yet time for the gentiles and Jesus only did what the Father directed, He did heal the child. Love is not the issue but rather who He was sent to minister to.
 

popsthebuilder

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We take it for granted that Jesus loved children, but why was Jesus so reluctant to heal a non-Jewish child? Did Jesus only love Jewish Children? (Those under the OT Covenant with God?)

Mark 7:24-30
24 Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. 25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 28 But she answered and said to Him, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children’s crumbs.” 29 And He said to her, “Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter.” 30 And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left.

[I am making no claims, I am only pointing out a scripture verse that does not show Jesus falling over himself to help a child.]
How is it that you cannot see that he tested the woman and it rested on the woman( the mother of the child) to show faithful understanding before He healed said child?

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popsthebuilder

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Mark 7: 18. "Have *you* also so little understanding?" He replied; "do you not understand that anything whatever that enters a man from outside cannot make him unclean, 19. because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and passes away ejected from him?" By these words Jesus pronounced all kinds of food clean. 20. "What comes out of a man," He added, "that it is which makes him unclean. 21. For from within, out of men's hearts, their evil purposes proceed--fornication, theft, murder, adultery, 22. covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, reviling, pride, reckless folly: 23. all these wicked things come out from within and make a man unclean."

(Similar to all words of Jesus the Christ of GOD; commands are directed to man; not child, ever. That is because evil is known by man and children are not accountable.)

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atpollard

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How is it that you cannot see that he tested the woman and it rested on the woman( the mother of the child) to show faithful understanding before He healed said child?
Did he test all the parents before healing their children?
What if the parent had failed the test?

Are you then saying that Jesus did not heal the children out of love for the children, but only to honor the faith of their parents?
[I can see what he did, but the question asked in the title was "Does Jesus Hate Children?" and you have avoided the fact that Jesus was reluctant to give the "children's" (Jewish) healing to "dogs" (a gentile child).]
 

popsthebuilder

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Did he test all the parents before healing their children?
What if the parent had failed the test?

Are you then saying that Jesus did not heal the children out of love for the children, but only to honor the faith of their parents?
[I can see what he did, but the question asked in the title was "Does Jesus Hate Children?" and you have avoided the fact that Jesus was reluctant to give the "children's" (Jewish) healing to "dogs" (a gentile child).]
It had nothing to do with the healing of the child. It had everything to do with the direction of the woman.

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MennoSota

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Households also included any servants and slaves as well as their families. They were very community minded, it wasn't about self.
So you make an assumption, but there is no direct statement about children. Is that accurate?
 

Josiah

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[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]


So you make an assumption, but there is no direct statement about children. Is that accurate?



You ASSUME that EVERYONE in these 5 families was over the age of X, exceeded the IQ and educational level of X, had FIRST wept buckets of tears in repentance, had chosen Jesus as their personal Savior and had first given adequate public proof of that - all with out ANYTHING WHATSOEVER in the text to remotely indicate that.


And you think all that remarkable ASSUMING you are doing is fine (even though that would be VERY, VERY rare indeed for "households" in First Century Israel). But you ridicule Lamm for assuming that these households were probably like 99% of households at the time - including children and probably non-believers. AT LEAST, you are as guilty as Lamm.... but I think you are far worse since you are assuming something that would be extremely, extremely rare while she is assuming something nearly universally the case.


Jesus' "log/speck" thing comes to mind...... Pointing on finger at Lamm and 3 back at yourself.



Back to the issue that when God blesses, we must assume that all children are EXCLUDED because God generally doesn't love or care or bless children...




- Josiah



.
 
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