Does Jesus Hate Children?

popsthebuilder

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You are getting desperate and working any angle to force your philosophy upon God. You are wrong. Just admit it.


Hmmm...sounds like you are calling God's word a lie and declaring your image of God to be the truth. I call what you are doing...idolatry.
God never forced Adam and Eve to sin. God is not responsible for the corruption that happened to man and his offspring by virtue of the fall.
An analogy: ISIS rebels against the ruling authorities and those ISIS rebels produce children who embrace the ideology of their parents. This goes on for generations. The young ones embrace the ideology from conception.
Is the ruler of the land obligated to save anyone in ISIS from the destruction that comes upon them? Is the ruler loving when he destroys everyone in ISIS?
Humans are sinful from conception. The Bible is very clear. Humans are born in rebellion to the Sovereign God. God is not obligated to save even one rebel or the rebels offspring. The fact that God does choose to save even one is an example of His love. The fact that God rightly destroys rebels is an example of His righteous and holy justice.
The Bible shares this truth from Genesis to Revelation. You, on the other hand seem to reject this truth. Instead, you create a false image of God based upon your man-made philosophy.
"rebels produce children who embrace the ideology of their parents"

So are the children they produce sinners prior to embracing said ideology?

If what you spoke was the truth then you would be able to produce a single verse that says children are sinners upon conception. Instead we see time and time again; through scripture; that one learns sin.

You are ignoring simple truths seemingly to simply oppose me.

All need GOD'S grace because they inherit sin; not through blood, but through experience.

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MennoSota

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If what you spoke was the truth then you would be able to produce a single verse that says children are sinners upon conception.
Pops we produced the verses.
Let's flip the coin.
Produce a verse that says children are born sinless.
 

popsthebuilder

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Pops we produced the verses.
Let's flip the coin.
Produce a verse that says children are born sinless.
I already showed such with the ones you showed;

Restore, renew, man....

And I already showed very many verses on how very blessed children are in the sight of GOD.


2 Peter 1: 4. It is by means of these that He has granted us His precious and wondrous promises, in order that through them you may, one and all, become sharers in the very nature of God, having completely escaped the corruption which exists in the world through earthly cravings.

Does a baby crave what it has yet to learn? No; it craves milk and sleep and to be cleaned and nurtured.

Matthew 13: 27. "So the farmer's men come and ask him, "`Sir, was it not good seed that you sowed on your land? Where then does the darnel come from?' 28. "`Some enemy has done this,' he said. "`Shall we go, and collect it?' the men inquire. 29. "`No,' he replied, `for fear that while collecting the darnel you should at the same time root up the wheat with it.



All need the grace of GOD.

That grace is given freely, and not dependent on man.

An infant; being so very beloved to GOD per the words of the Christ, is surely given manifold grace; that is; unmerited mercy.

We are in agreement except that you seem to believe all babies are made distinctly evil from before conception by GOD, and I believe nearly all babies are made with freedom and potential for both good and evil. I do not deny that all need a Savior.


I am backing out of the conversation with you.

I hope GOD guides us both.

peace; good night.

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MennoSota

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I already showed such with the ones you showed;

Restore, renew, man....

And I already showed very many verses on how very blessed children are in the sight of GOD.


2 Peter 1: 4. It is by means of these that He has granted us His precious and wondrous promises, in order that through them you may, one and all, become sharers in the very nature of God, having completely escaped the corruption which exists in the world through earthly cravings.

Does a baby crave what it has yet to learn? No; it craves milk and sleep and to be cleaned and nurtured.

Matthew 13: 27. "So the farmer's men come and ask him, "`Sir, was it not good seed that you sowed on your land? Where then does the darnel come from?' 28. "`Some enemy has done this,' he said. "`Shall we go, and collect it?' the men inquire. 29. "`No,' he replied, `for fear that while collecting the darnel you should at the same time root up the wheat with it.



All need the grace of GOD.

That grace is given freely, and not dependent on man.

An infant; being so very beloved to GOD per the words of the Christ, is surely given manifold grace; that is; unmerited mercy.

We are in agreement except that you seem to believe all babies are made distinctly evil from before conception by GOD, and I believe nearly all babies are made with freedom and potential for both good and evil. I do not deny that all need a Savior.


I am backing out of the conversation with you.

I hope GOD guides us both.

peace; good night.

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I don't see the verse that says infants are born sinless.
I see you arguing for your man-made philosophy, however.
Please provide a verse that says infants are born sinless.
The verses from 2 Peter and Matthew say nothing about infants being born sinless. Surely you can find a verse...
You are correct in this:
"All need the grace of God."
Why is that?
The answer is because all humans are sinners. Sinless people never need grace. They are perfect and holy on their own.
Do you see that you argue against yourself when you correctly say that all need the grace of God?
 

atpollard

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John Wesley would argue for "PREVENIENT GRACE":

One of John Wesley’s finest contributions to theology was his understanding of prevenient grace. Broadly speaking, this is the grace that “goes before”—that grace which precedes human action and reflects God’s heart for his creation. It testifies to God’s being the initiator of any relationship with him and reveals him as one who pursues us. While prevenient grace is an orthodox teaching held by the historic church, it becomes distinctly Wesleyan in its reach and scope. For John Wesley, prevenient grace is available to all, such that there is no “natural man” left in a purely fallen state without a measure of God’s restorative grace. Furthermore, prevenient grace is salvific in direction.

This means the Spirit of God works not just to restore certain faculties of humanity or to limit human sin, but ultimately directs people to the work of Christ. This is one of the marks that sets Wesley apart from Augustine and John Calvin. Prevenient grace reaches beyond Reformed common grace since it involves all of the preparatory work of the Spirit before a person accepts the gospel.

The foundation for God’s prevenient work as initiator is firmly grounded in Scripture. The narrative of Scripture bears witness to a God who calls and pursues persons. He called Adam in the garden while he was hiding from the shame of sin (Gen. 3:9), Abraham out of his father’s house at Haran (Gen. 12:4), and Moses while he was busy tending his flock (Exod. 3:4). Jacob and Israel were chosen to bless the earth because of a promise to Abraham, not because they were significant (Rom. 9)

The New Testament is replete with passages that testify to the character of God as loving initiator, especially as revealed in Jesus Christ. Luke 19:10 says, “For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” We can only love because he first loved us, and this he did while we were still weak (Rom. 5:6; 1 John 4:10, 19; John 6:44). If left to ourselves, and here one should think of Wesley’s theoretical “natural man,” we would be absorbed in sin that leads to utter self-destruction and eternal separation from God.

The good news is that God acted in Christ and works through his Spirit in bringing us salvation. Wesley’s theology of prevenient grace teaches us that God is at work long before the church evangelizes, quickening people’s hearts to become the people he intends. His favorite reference was perhaps John 1:9, which reads, “The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.” One notices that Wesley takes seriously the universality of the blessings afforded by Christ and actualized by the Holy Spirit (see also John 12:32; Titus 2:11-14). This particular grace is that which Paul speaks of in Acts 17:26-27, where the purpose of God’s providence in history is that persons would seek him and know him. In this way, prevenient grace is the presence of God in time and space—in all places and all times—preparing the world for the hearing of the gospel.

For John Wesley, the grace that goes before is irresistible in that it applies universal blessings (see his sermon, “On Working Out Our Own Salvation“). It “waiteth not for the call of man,” and in doing so its reach is all persons. It is salvific in direction in that it is all the preparatory work of the Spirit for justifying grace, and so its scope is leading people to salvation.


In other words, God ENABLES all people to choose. So Children are born with both Adam's sin nature and God's grace to overcome it ... God grants Free Will to all. [classic Wesleyan Methodist teaching]

(just offered for the discussion since it includes scriptural support.)
 

psalms 91

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John Wesley would argue for "PREVENIENT GRACE":

One of John Wesley’s finest contributions to theology was his understanding of prevenient grace. Broadly speaking, this is the grace that “goes before”—that grace which precedes human action and reflects God’s heart for his creation. It testifies to God’s being the initiator of any relationship with him and reveals him as one who pursues us. While prevenient grace is an orthodox teaching held by the historic church, it becomes distinctly Wesleyan in its reach and scope. For John Wesley, prevenient grace is available to all, such that there is no “natural man” left in a purely fallen state without a measure of God’s restorative grace. Furthermore, prevenient grace is salvific in direction.

This means the Spirit of God works not just to restore certain faculties of humanity or to limit human sin, but ultimately directs people to the work of Christ. This is one of the marks that sets Wesley apart from Augustine and John Calvin. Prevenient grace reaches beyond Reformed common grace since it involves all of the preparatory work of the Spirit before a person accepts the gospel.

The foundation for God’s prevenient work as initiator is firmly grounded in Scripture. The narrative of Scripture bears witness to a God who calls and pursues persons. He called Adam in the garden while he was hiding from the shame of sin (Gen. 3:9), Abraham out of his father’s house at Haran (Gen. 12:4), and Moses while he was busy tending his flock (Exod. 3:4). Jacob and Israel were chosen to bless the earth because of a promise to Abraham, not because they were significant (Rom. 9)

The New Testament is replete with passages that testify to the character of God as loving initiator, especially as revealed in Jesus Christ. Luke 19:10 says, “For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” We can only love because he first loved us, and this he did while we were still weak (Rom. 5:6; 1 John 4:10, 19; John 6:44). If left to ourselves, and here one should think of Wesley’s theoretical “natural man,” we would be absorbed in sin that leads to utter self-destruction and eternal separation from God.

The good news is that God acted in Christ and works through his Spirit in bringing us salvation. Wesley’s theology of prevenient grace teaches us that God is at work long before the church evangelizes, quickening people’s hearts to become the people he intends. His favorite reference was perhaps John 1:9, which reads, “The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.” One notices that Wesley takes seriously the universality of the blessings afforded by Christ and actualized by the Holy Spirit (see also John 12:32; Titus 2:11-14). This particular grace is that which Paul speaks of in Acts 17:26-27, where the purpose of God’s providence in history is that persons would seek him and know him. In this way, prevenient grace is the presence of God in time and space—in all places and all times—preparing the world for the hearing of the gospel.

For John Wesley, the grace that goes before is irresistible in that it applies universal blessings (see his sermon, “On Working Out Our Own Salvation“). It “waiteth not for the call of man,” and in doing so its reach is all persons. It is salvific in direction in that it is all the preparatory work of the Spirit for justifying grace, and so its scope is leading people to salvation.


In other words, God ENABLES all people to choose. So Children are born with both Adam's sin nature and God's grace to overcome it ... God grants Free Will to all. [classic Wesleyan Methodist teaching]

(just offered for the discussion since it includes scriptural support.)
Ahh finally somrthing I can endorse, free will and sin nature and Jesus sacrifice enabling us to gain victory.
 

Josiah

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atpollard

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Several have attempted to hijack this thread with a discussion of original sin. While that's not appropriate here, it is appropriate here:
I disagree.
Whether or not children are born under the curse of Original Sin seems VERY relevant to “Does God hate Children?”.
The question then becomes “Does God love sin?”
 

Josiah

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I disagree.Whether or not children are born under the curse of Original Sin seems VERY relevant to “Does God hate Children?”.The question then becomes “Does God love sin?”


God does not love sin. But He loves us (all of whom are sinful). "While we were ENEMIES of God...." You know that verse.


If we want to discuss original sin (I think Reformed Christians affirm that teaching), there's a thread for it here: http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5117-Sin-and-the-Law
 

Josiah

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double post, sorry
 

Andrew

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Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
Psalm 127:3


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Pedrito

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I have two thoughts for popsthebuilder.

==============================================================================================

I thank popsthebuilder for sharing his deeply personal experience with us.

I suspect he realises that where he is at this particular moment may be just one of the steps towards the final position to which God wants to lead him.

==============================================================================================

There is a statement from the apostle Paul that possibly puts the lid on the discussion regarding the position of young children.

I might have missed it as I skimmed this thread, but I don’t think it has been tabled.

The statement is made in 1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is a statement of general truth, made within a particular context. It gives us some enlightening knowledge.

1. All humans die because of the sin of Adam. One might call it imputed sin. It applies to all ages, even to those who have yet to knowingly sin.

2. Because all human sin was bundled under its original source, Jesus was able to pay the price of Man's (every individual's) sin – imputed or otherwise.

3. God was able, by the sacrifice of one righteous human, to totally nullify the effect of the original human's rebellion. (I use the singular because it was Adam that knowingly rebelled. Eve was tricked.)

4. Therefore all humans will be brought back to life, including all children. 1 Corinthians 15:21: “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.


So popsthebuilder's perception of the justice and mercy of God (however he expressed it) in not condemning children of any kind (if I understood him correctly), seems pretty close to the mark after all.
 

Albion

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Pedrito: The statement is made in 1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is a statement of general truth, made within a particular context. It gives us some enlightening knowledge.



1. All humans die because of the sin of Adam. One might call it imputed sin. It applies to all ages, even to those who have yet to knowingly sin. correct


2. Because all human sin was bundled under its original source, Jesus was able to pay the price of Man's (every individual's) sin – imputed or otherwise. correct


3. God was able, by the sacrifice of one righteous human, to totally nullify the effect of the original human's rebellion. correct


4. Therefore all humans will be brought back to life, including all children. incorrect

All humans are made eligible for eternal life (meaning life with God, i.e. salvation, the life originally intended for Man by the Creator. Genesis indicates that the life which was forfeited by Adam was the life he had known in Eden--physical life without end, sickness, pain, or labor).








.
 
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pinacled

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Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
Psalm 127:3


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firstfruits
The Lord said to Moses,
“Depart; go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought up out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘To your children I will give it.’
 

psalms 91

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Yes firstfruits is today I believe
 

Andrew

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Makes sense. We are the children of today because our fathers are of yesterday, we are then the first fruits and the first shall be as the last.
:)

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popsthebuilder

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Pedrito: The statement is made in 1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is a statement of general truth, made within a particular context. It gives us some enlightening knowledge.



1. All humans die because of the sin of Adam. One might call it imputed sin. It applies to all ages, even to those who have yet to knowingly sin. correct


2. Because all human sin was bundled under its original source, Jesus was able to pay the price of Man's (every individual's) sin – imputed or otherwise. correct


3. God was able, by the sacrifice of one righteous human, to totally nullify the effect of the original human's rebellion. correct


4. Therefore all humans will be brought back to life, including all children. incorrect

All humans are made eligible for eternal life (meaning life with God, i.e. salvation, the life originally intended for Man by the Creator. Genesis indicates that the life which was forfeited by Adam was the life he had known in Eden--physical life without end, sickness, pain, or labor).








.
All will be brought back and judged...those in knowing error against the Holy Spirit will be damned/ destroyed forever. Those who where genuinely ignorant in physical life....their sin had been paid for.

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MennoSota

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All will be brought back and judged...those in knowing error against the Holy Spirit will be damned/ destroyed forever.


Those who where genuinely ignorant in physical life....their sin had been paid for.

Scripture please. Show me where the Bible says "the genuinely ignorant have their sins paid for." Where is it implied?
 

popsthebuilder

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Scripture please. Show me where the Bible says "the genuinely ignorant have their sins paid for." Where is it implied?
Whom much is given much will be required.

It is referenced repeately in the parables of Christ and most likely in Psalms, also repeatedly.



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