what do you think of this statement?

NewCreation435 · Feb 11, 2018

The church that I have started to attend has the following statement in their statement of beliefs

"Harvest Bible Chapel is a non-charismatic, conservative, evangelical fellowship that welcomes all who know Jesus Christ as their Savior and all who are seeking Him. Those who claim to possess the gift of tongues and other sign gifts are welcome to worship and fellowship with us if they are willing to be a source of unity rather than division within our church body. We believe that the Christian life is supernatural and that the Lord continues to perform miracles. We also believe that current displays of the gift of tongues distract from the main task of the local church, which is to glorify God through the fulfillment of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20)."
Current displays of the gift of tongues:

Give unwarranted prominence to the gift, which is described in the New Testament as being only one of many spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12).
Emphasize speaking in tongues as the primary manifestation of the Spirit's work in a person's life, while minimizing the Spirit's work in producing a holy life (2 Corinthians 3:17-18; 2 Timothy 1:9), and a life that displays the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22).
Often suggest that speaking in tongues is a required proof of being Spirit-filled or of possessing salvation in Christ, even though the Scriptures do not teach this.

Harvest Bible Chapel seeks to prevent the propagation of doctrines that would cause divisions within an individual church. Therefore, members of and adherents of Harvest Bible Chapel are not to propagate the teachings and emphases of the current charismatic movement. Although we do not control personal, individual interactions with the Lord, the expression of tongues and other sign gifts are not to be overtly expressed at meetings that are under the organization and authority of Harvest Bible Chapel.

I wonder what your thoughts are about this statement?

Lamb · Feb 11, 2018

To me that statement sounds like they had an experience with a member or members who valued their tongue speaking so highly that it became a cause of drama in their congregation. That drama must have put a damper on keeping their eyes on Jesus instead put the focus on the tongues speakers so the discouragement of tongues is for the benefit of the congregation. They want their focus on the savior instead of someone else. Instead of "Oh look at what he can do" it should be "Oh look at what the Savior has done for us".

NewCreation435 · Feb 11, 2018

Lämmchen said:
To me that statement sounds like they had an experience with a member or members who valued their tongue speaking so highly that it became a cause of drama in their congregation. That drama must have put a damper on keeping their eyes on Jesus instead put the focus on the tongues speakers so the discouragement of tongues is for the benefit of the congregation. They want their focus on the savior instead of someone else. Instead of "Oh look at what he can do" it should be "Oh look at what the Savior has done for us".

I've only heard this pastor twice and met him today, but he seems very biblical in his preaching. They are affiliated with Walk in the Word James MacDonald's ministry and Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago.

Lamb · Feb 11, 2018

jsimms435 said:
I've only heard this pastor twice and met him today, but he seems very biblical in his preaching. They are affiliated with Walk in the Word James MacDonald's ministry and Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago.

I am not sure if I've heard of that (I know a lot of Chicago churches). As long as they emphasize Jesus then stay awhile and see what else you can learn

Albion · Feb 11, 2018

jsimms435 said:
The church that I have started to attend has the following statement in their statement of beliefs?

The statement itself seems sound and reasonable, but I know nothing of the Harvest Bible Chapel otherwise--or James MacDonald.

NewCreation435 · Feb 11, 2018

Albion said:
The statement itself seems sound and reasonable, but I know nothing of the Harvest Bible Chapel otherwise--or James MacDonald.

Harvest Bible Chapel is who they are affiliated with. The actual church is called the Vertical church. Here is what they say about why it is called that:

Vertical Church
Vertical. It’s a summary term for everything that we believe about the church.

Ephesians 3:21 lays out our highest purpose, “to him TO HIM (emphasis added) be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.”

The purpose of the church is not something we get to fashion according to our own whim, or subjective sense of God’s leading. The purpose of the church is doxological not soteriological. The purpose of the church of Jesus Christ is not to reach people, or feed the poor or any of those important ‘by products.’ The purpose of the church is to elevate and honor God’s great Son in the minds and hearts of those who gather in His name. PERIOD. When that truly happens, all the other good things happen too. When that focus is neglected nothing that ‘happens’ is lasting or worthwhile.

Everything that happens when the church gathers is for that single VERTICAL purpose.

Josiah · Feb 11, 2018

Lämmchen said:
To me that statement sounds like they had an experience with a member or members who valued their tongue speaking so highly that it became a cause of drama in their congregation. That drama must have put a damper on keeping their eyes on Jesus instead put the focus on the tongues speakers so the discouragement of tongues is for the benefit of the congregation. They want their focus on the savior instead of someone else. Instead of "Oh look at what he can do" it should be "Oh look at what the Savior has done for us".

Sounds to ME like a church with one concern: To avoid any "charismatics" causing a problem.... I think their concern should be to proclaim that Jesus is the Savior, upholding Jesus as the God/Man who saves us.

NewCreation435 · Feb 11, 2018

Josiah said:
Sounds to ME like a church with one concern: To avoid any "charismatics" causing a problem.... I think their concern should be to proclaim that Jesus is the Savior, upholding Jesus as the God/Man who saves us.

did you read post #6 before commenting? I wouldn't be so quick to judge

MennoSota · Feb 11, 2018

Josiah said:
Sounds to ME like a church with one concern: To avoid any "charismatics" causing a problem.... I think their concern should be to proclaim that Jesus is the Savior, upholding Jesus as the God/Man who saves us.

They are being clear that the worship services will be orderly and not filled with chaos. Sort of an independent evangelical liturgy...

Andrew · Feb 13, 2018

jsimms435 said:
The church that I have started to attend has the following statement in their statement of beliefs

"Harvest Bible Chapel is a non-charismatic, conservative, evangelical fellowship that welcomes all who know Jesus Christ as their Savior and all who are seeking Him. Those who claim to possess the gift of tongues and other sign gifts are welcome to worship and fellowship with us if they are willing to be a source of unity rather than division within our church body. We believe that the Christian life is supernatural and that the Lord continues to perform miracles. We also believe that current displays of the gift of tongues distract from the main task of the local church, which is to glorify God through the fulfillment of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20)."
Current displays of the gift of tongues:

Give unwarranted prominence to the gift, which is described in the New Testament as being only one of many spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12).
Emphasize speaking in tongues as the primary manifestation of the Spirit's work in a person's life, while minimizing the Spirit's work in producing a holy life (2 Corinthians 3:17-18; 2 Timothy 1:9), and a life that displays the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22).
Often suggest that speaking in tongues is a required proof of being Spirit-filled or of possessing salvation in Christ, even though the Scriptures do not teach this.

Harvest Bible Chapel seeks to prevent the propagation of doctrines that would cause divisions within an individual church. Therefore, members of and adherents of Harvest Bible Chapel are not to propagate the teachings and emphases of the current charismatic movement. Although we do not control personal, individual interactions with the Lord, the expression of tongues and other sign gifts are not to be overtly expressed at meetings that are under the organization and authority of Harvest Bible Chapel.

I wonder what your thoughts are about this statement?

I agree with those statements. One of the biggest issues with my Pentecostal church is that they make tongue speaking necessary to Holy living. I believe the one doing it has their own choice to go all out in the spirit or try to be biblical to some extent about it and keep it between them and the Lord, I try to whisper and its a good practice for me for when I feel the spirit out of church or at other churches... not that people will judge me or anything but there should not ever be any dogma over it.
Sounds like a thoughtful church, my church encourages it but you cant encourage 'it' or expect 'it', but every now and then (at least once a month) they will spout somewhere in the middle of a sermon something like "... And you must speak in tongues just like in Acts" and I get a little upset because if it turns me off im sure many more are turned off too.

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tango · Feb 17, 2018

jsimms435 said:
The church that I have started to attend has the following statement in their statement of beliefs

"Harvest Bible Chapel is a non-charismatic, conservative, evangelical fellowship that welcomes all who know Jesus Christ as their Savior and all who are seeking Him. Those who claim to possess the gift of tongues and other sign gifts are welcome to worship and fellowship with us if they are willing to be a source of unity rather than division within our church body. We believe that the Christian life is supernatural and that the Lord continues to perform miracles. We also believe that current displays of the gift of tongues distract from the main task of the local church, which is to glorify God through the fulfillment of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20)."
Current displays of the gift of tongues:

Give unwarranted prominence to the gift, which is described in the New Testament as being only one of many spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12).
Emphasize speaking in tongues as the primary manifestation of the Spirit's work in a person's life, while minimizing the Spirit's work in producing a holy life (2 Corinthians 3:17-18; 2 Timothy 1:9), and a life that displays the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22).
Often suggest that speaking in tongues is a required proof of being Spirit-filled or of possessing salvation in Christ, even though the Scriptures do not teach this.

Harvest Bible Chapel seeks to prevent the propagation of doctrines that would cause divisions within an individual church. Therefore, members of and adherents of Harvest Bible Chapel are not to propagate the teachings and emphases of the current charismatic movement. Although we do not control personal, individual interactions with the Lord, the expression of tongues and other sign gifts are not to be overtly expressed at meetings that are under the organization and authority of Harvest Bible Chapel.

I wonder what your thoughts are about this statement?

I would be somewhat concerned by the overt rejection of "sign gifts".

I agree with what Lammchen wrote about them possibly having had a bad experience with people who insist that tongues are the only valid evidence that someone has the Holy Spirit or the more cult-like expressions such as what Bill Johnson teaches and the focus ends up on chasing miracles rather than on seeking God. Interestingly in 2 Kings where Elijah is taken into heaven we see Elisha given the task of watching his master, and when the chariots of fire descended Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind - the chariots of fire were nothing more than a distraction.

On the other hand the call in 1Th5 is twofold - "do not despise prophecy" and "do not quench the Spirit" are paired with "test all things, hold fast what is good". If we err one way we end up in the silliness of the hypercharismatic movement where just about anything is accepted, except for testing and discernment. If we err the other way we reject things out of hand and quench the Spirit. There is a balance to be struck and from this statement I think this church is too far towards "quench the Spirit". That said, I think that's a safer place to be than the weirdness of some of the silly charismatic churches where they don't test anything and end up following all sorts of bad teachings because it made someone feel good.

what do you think of this statement?

NewCreation435

Well-known member

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb

NewCreation435

Well-known member

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb

Albion

Well-known member

NewCreation435

Well-known member

Josiah

simul justus et peccator

NewCreation435

Well-known member

MennoSota

Well-known member

Andrew

Matt 18:15

tango

... and you shall live ...