Some Lutherans don't believe Jesus is God

Stravinsk

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It's fairly clear to me that MennoSota's aim is to bait and provoke people and then accuse them without any real and concrete evidence for his challenges. I mean, geez...I merely posted a song in the closed thread that touches not on the subject matter at all and this is apparently enough to brand me an ELCA Lutheran. Never mind that my icon is Deist. Never mind I've been clear I don't attend any specific church. Never mind that I clearly reject a person who Lutherans, through much of their theology, hold in high esteem - Saul/Paul.

MennoSota reminds me of a banned member also. I'm not saying it's a fact, just a speculation and a feeling I get. I could be wrong.
 

hedrick

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No, I have pointed out when their theology shows that they are not Christians, but are CINO'S.

No names or details about theology have been given. So nothing could be pointed out because there isn't enough information to do so.
 

MennoSota

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A quote requires the full creditation...

Again, saying one does not endorse a particular atonement theory is not heresy and is not unlutheran....

So far, I just see gossip.... and just by one or two people at that. That doesn't make all 3.5 million people and 9000 congregations guilty of heresy - IF you proved the quote authentic, it MIGHT show one or two persons unorthodox and not in full compliance with the Book of Concord. I wouldn't be shocked if one or two people in your denomination were not in full compliance with everything in the Reformed Confessions and documents..... Do you want us to waste our time looking to all the preachers in all denominations with "Reformed" or "Presbyterian" in their denominational name or some historic link to such? Of course not.

NONE here at CH have any ability to correct anyone in the ELCA, anymore than you do. If they need to be corrected, why don't YOU do it? Neither you nor anyone here is a parish of the ELCA, so you have EXACTLY the same ability to act here as any here....

I think you need to be more focused on your own denomination than take cheap shots at others .... You CAN (perhaps!!!) do something about the folks in your parish and denomination. None here can do more than you can about these internet rumors about two or three people among the 3.5 million in the ELCA.



- Josiah
You just won't admit that there are some Lutheran leaders who teach heresy. It reminds me of the Lutherans in Germany who sang louder as the train cars with Jews went by.
I suggest you just accept that there is a group of leaders in Lutheranism who are heretics and then personally stand up and tell them they are heretics.
 

MennoSota

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No names or details about theology have been given. So nothing could be pointed out because there isn't enough information to do so.
LOL, this is becoming funny...if it weren't so sad that people can't call out heretics in there own denomination.
Bethel University had a theology professor who taught that God wasn't omniscient and didn't know the future. He was let go. He went on to form an independent church that grew, until he extended his heresies. The church removed him. It is a good thing when believers remove leaders who have abandoned God's word.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Closing this for the evening. An admin can review it in the a.m. and re-open if they choose to.
 

Lamb

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I'm going to re-open this thread now to see how it goes.

For the information of all, here is a link to the ELCA website concerning Faith and their beliefs: http://www.elca.org/Faith/ELCA-Teaching/Scripture-Creeds-Confessions
They affirm the 3 creeds where it states Jesus is God.

Any further libel against Lutherans or the ELCA Synod will not be tolerated in the claim that Lutherans don't believe Jesus is God.

It is proven by their website that as a unit they DO believe Jesus is God. Now, we know that in every group there are those who don't believe but that doesn't mean that the entire unit accepts their teaching. There have been examples given of these people who have differing beliefs but again that does not mean that all of Lutheranism agrees with their teaching or that their Synod is teaching the same thing.
 

Josiah

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No names or details about theology have been given. So nothing could be pointed out because there isn't enough information to do so.


It's called gossip.


And it was brought up (in a sweeping, all-inclusive way) in another thread to divert and redirect the thread in order to evade points raised.


There are likely unorthodox folks in parishes of ALL denominations.... there are likely folks in parishes of all denominations who believe in UFO's, who voted for Trump, who like Limburger cheese and think global warming is a communist conspiracy.. maybe even people who are convicted criminals!!!! I just challenge the "logic" that THEREFORE everyone in the denomination is like that or THEREFORE the denomination is sick and bad or THEREFORE it is the duty of Lutherans to correct and change all those people in all those denominations.
 

hedrick

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It is proven by their website that as a unit they DO believe Jesus is God. Now, we know that in every group there are those who don't believe but that doesn't mean that the entire unit accepts their teaching. There have been examples given of these people who have differing beliefs but again that does not mean that all of Lutheranism agrees with their teaching or that their Synod is teaching the same thing.
I appreciate the attempt to deal with what is so far gossip. But "Jesus is God" is probably not a phrase you want to use to define orthodoxy. It's not present in any of the classical creeds that I'm familiar with, nor is it in the Book of Concord (unless I've missed something).

While I don't know the specifics, given mainline theology as a whole, it's very likely that many of their seminary faculty make use of modern theological language. There's a tendency in modern theology not use that phrase. Of course Christ, who is both human and God, is God. But many people use "Jesus" to refer specifically to his human existence. This usage is Scriptural. If you look at where Scripture uses Jesus and where it uses Christ, you'll see that there's a subtle difference.

Lutherans, of course, have some specific emphases. That would make it a bit more likely that they'd agree that Jesus is God than most mainline theologians. That's because historically they have pushed the communication of attributes further than others. Thus, for example, they have historically asserted that Jesus' human body is omnipresent, not because its humanity is different from ours, but because in union with the Logos, it shares in divine attributes.

But still, one could believe that an ELCA theologian might not want to say "Jesus is God" but might still hold orthodox theology. As one example, N T Wright has rather pointedly refused to say that, but he is surely orthodox. To judge orthodoxy you need to look at not just the words people say, but what they mean. That's why I said we need to look at specifics of what is actually taught, not at use of a phrase that is not used either in Scripture or the creeds.
 
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Albion

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That does not seem to be verified by the ELCA article Lammchen linked us to in post 46, however. In it we read the following:

"Like the Scriptures, the three ecumenical creeds — the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed — are written documents. They originate from the earliest centuries of the Christian church’s history, a time when theological and philosophical questions about the identity of Jesus were widely debated among Christians. All three creeds affirm that God is fully present in Jesus, that Jesus Christ is both God and human (not a semi-divine or superhuman creature that is neither)."
 

hedrick

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All three creeds affirm that God is fully present in Jesus
"God is fully present in Jesus" is classic modern theological language. Those who would be reluctant to say "Jesus is God" would normally have no problem at all saying that. (At least not unless we're speaking of folks like Spong.)

Similarly "Jesus Christ is both God and human" is a statement about Christ "as a whole," i.e. it includes both the the eternal Logos and his incarnation in Jesus. That specific statement is not a problem for modern theology either.
 

Albion

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MennoSota

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I'm going to re-open this thread now to see how it goes.

For the information of all, here is a link to the ELCA website concerning Faith and their beliefs: http://www.elca.org/Faith/ELCA-Teaching/Scripture-Creeds-Confessions
They affirm the 3 creeds where it states Jesus is God.

Any further libel against Lutherans or the ELCA Synod will not be tolerated in the claim that Lutherans don't believe Jesus is God.

It is proven by their website that as a unit they DO believe Jesus is God. Now, we know that in every group there are those who don't believe but that doesn't mean that the entire unit accepts their teaching. There have been examples given of these people who have differing beliefs but again that does not mean that all of Lutheranism agrees with their teaching or that their Synod is teaching the same thing.
The Soviets claimed they were Democrats. Think about it...
 
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