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  • Results 1 to 6 of 6
    1. #1
      Stravinsk's Avatar
      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      How you view, and how He viewed, His murder

      It should be crystal clear when reading the Gospels (specifically, Matthew and John), that Christ had harsh words and criticism for those who were plotting to murder Him. Although He predicted His death at their hands, nevertheless he had no kind words for their plots and their actions.

      A critical example is Judas Iscariot. When he takes the bread dipped in the dish, Scriptures say that Satan entered him. Did this man crucify Christ? No, he was merely paid money - 30 silver peices - to betray him to those that would order it.

      Of the disciples, Christ says this:
      John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
      John 17:12
      While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

      At the time of speaking, the only lost one among the disciples is Judas Iscariot. Again, this Judas does not command the death of Christ, he doesn't nail him to a cross, he merely accepts money to have him captured.

      Christians often have a dim view of Judas, and an even dimmer view of the Jewish leadership who rallied for His death. The Romans? Servants of these Jewish leaders for fear of the people it seems.

      My simple question is:

      If you are a Christian who believes you are saved through the murder of Jesus and the Resurrection, why would you have a dim view of any of these parties? You are, after all, agreeing that it had to happen. You are agreeing that murdering the Messiah was necessary so you can get to heaven. Sure, by proxy of some people that lived a long time ago, but nevertheless you are agreeing with murder.

      And yet, Christ doesn't. He says it's going to happen. He predicts it. But He also condemns it as evil.

      Can you also condemn it, seeing as you see it as necessary for your salvation?

      Can you admit that your doublemindedness only applies here, and not to other murders and murderers you come across? You come across evil people in life or hear about them somehow, and you in no wise agree with their murdering actions. However this agreement is simply not possible if you are saved through their actions.

    2. #2
      DHoffmann's Avatar
      DHoffmann is offline Veteran Member
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      As a man in human nature Jesus didn't want to die, those who crucified him were evil and he knew this was going to happen eventually. Gnostics after that era actually sympathised with Judas because they believe it was his duty, but Jesus didn't know when for only the Father knows these things, Jesus even acts a bit surprised because he asked "you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?". So yep the devil called the shot through Judas first

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    3. #3
      MennoSota is online now Veteran Member
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      Jesus was never murdered. Jesus/God chose the means by He would pay for the sins of His chosen children.
      God is never helpless and never incapable of choice.
      It's a silly statement to say Jesus was murdered.

    4. #4
      MennoSota is online now Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      As a man in human nature Jesus didn't want to die, those who crucified him were evil and he knew this was going to happen eventually. Gnostics after that era actually sympathised with Judas because they believe it was his duty, but Jesus didn't know when for only the Father knows these things, Jesus even acts a bit surprised because he asked "you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?". So yep the devil called the shot through Judas first

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
      No, The devil never called even one shot. In John 6 Jesus said that one of the people he chose was a devil and would betray him. He was never taken by surprise.
      Jesus correctly told Pilate that his angels were ready at His command. Jesus always fulfilled the will of God.
      It is appalling to me when people believe that some created being "called the shots" over God Himself.

    5. #5
      DHoffmann's Avatar
      DHoffmann is offline Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      No, The devil never called even one shot. In John 6 Jesus said that one of the people he chose was a devil and would betray him. He was never taken by surprise.
      Jesus correctly told Pilate that his angels were ready at His command. Jesus always fulfilled the will of God.
      It is appalling to me when people believe that some created being "called the shots" over God Himself.
      Well this conversation can go into a whole nother level.
      Jesus knew his fate I agree but God did not direct the evil, the evil was apparent obviously.
      All I'm saying is that the OP seems to imply that I am double minded and see Christ's death as the work of evil opposed to Gods glorious will and promise to both the Jews and Gentile alike of humanities savior and redeemer.

      I guess I can see what strav was trying to get across, interesting topic

    6. #6
      MennoSota is online now Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Well this conversation can go into a whole nother level.
      Jesus knew his fate I agree but God did not direct the evil, the evil was apparent obviously.
      All I'm saying is that the OP seems to imply that I am double minded and see Christ's death as the work of evil opposed to Gods glorious will and promise to both the Jews and Gentile alike of humanities savior and redeemer.

      I guess I can see what strav was trying to get across, interesting topic
      God the Father ordained that God the Son would be the propitiation for His adopted children. It was God's good pleasure to make a way by which rebels could be reconciled to Him. Evil, rebels acted in accordance with God's ordained will. We see in Habakkuk that God does such things when He tells Habakkuk that He (God) raised up the wicked Babylonians to accomplish His will in reprimanding Judah.
      We must stop imagining that events happen outside of God's authority. We must realize that God is always in control.

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