Lutherans don't believe Jesus is God?

MennoSota said:

Josiah said:

1. No one here is ELCA
.

2. It seems you know everything about an undisclosed number of ELCA students in Minnesota. Okay. They aren't all Lutherans, they arn't the Book of Concord, and they aren't the same as "Lutherans." Friend, if any cared to spend the time (and it would be a waste of time) I'm very confident that we could look at 5 or 6 Catholics or Greek Orthodox or United Reformed or LCMSor UMC or ANY OTHER DENOMINATION WITH OVER 1000 members - and find some comment that at least appears unorthodox. I'm imaging there MIGHT be at least one student or teacher in some institution associated with your denomination that might have said something that appears unorthodox. The problem is your logic: ERGO Lutherans deny Christ.


3. Yes, the Book of Concord does not dogmatically endorse ANY of the various "atonement theories' (including the "vicarious" or "substitutional") - nor does it condemn any of them. But it's ABSURD and of course wrong to say ERGO the Book of Concord denies the divinity of Christ - or even that ERGO Lutherans do (your logic often is, well.....).


4. You were given a WIDE OPEN DOOR here to simply say, "I over-stated things" and apologize. No one here would have held it against you, but....


5. I was not offended by your post (another started this thread, a non-Lutheran) because I saw it as simply yet another attempt to evade what was posted to you and an attempt to change the subject away from one you obviously were increasingly uncomfortable defending. But again, when it was brought to your attention.... since we all know you erred ..... the appropriate thing would have been to state, "Okay, I way over stated the case." Or, "Okay, I made a baseless generality." But you have not.


.

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Is the ELCA not Lutherans?


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Obviously not.

Your "logic" is the same as saying 'Donald Trump is Americans." But worse, since ELCA is a geopolitical/economic/legal institution (not a person) and thus isn't even A Lutheran. There are some 72 million Lutherans - and not one of them is the ELCA. But Lutherans don't define Lutheranism, the Book of Concord does (a point you know but you chose.... well.... it's obvious).

Clearly, you just wanted to evade the post you wanted to look like you were responding to with a totally irrelevant point meant to redirect the discussion.

Worse, you have been given opportunity after opportunity to say, "I misspoke" or "I was using hyperbole." You would have been forgiven. Instead, you are just digging yourself further and further - all with very, very flawed "logic." All springing from your denomination's assumptions of what God can and can't do. Post # 2 here should have been from you saying, "Sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't post what I meant, here's what I meant to say.." You would have been forgiven and the issue forgotten. Instead we find a pattern on this issue....

CH is a VERY "tolerant" and open forum. The Staff here gives enormous leeway, as do the posters. But they expect respect.... and honesty.

I never said all Lutherans. That is something the OP is implying.

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See post #21 . Since your "they" refers to a statement that obviously did mean "all Lutherans" well, everyone knows that you were saying "all". Again, you have been given opportunity after opportunity to say, "I didn't mean to imply, I should have said "some Lutherans" but have you? No. Which tells us all...

Truth is that people here are trying to support a denomination when they should be supporting the Bible over their denomination.

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Friend, odd YOU (of all the posters here) should say that..... because I know of none here who is more persistent in echoing the party line, the spin of Reformed Anabaptists..... and you evade Scripture like the plague, never really responding to the Scriptures presented to you, always trying to use your "logic" to trump Scripture - even spin it 180 degrees the opposite of what they words state.


Look.... I like people with a stance, people who can articulate their position, people who regard truth as something that matters. And it seems to ME you often do that. On the issue of the Sacraments, you verbatim echo the party line of Reformed Anabaptists but you WILL NOT discuss it, and when people (respectfully) bring up things - you seem to get VERY frustrated, very evasive and trying to divert things (as this thread gives one example), and unfortunately, close to personal flaming. This tells ME you realize the flaws in your position but.....

IMO, one of the advantages of discussing theology in an ecumenical forum like CH is to gain other perspectives, to learn other views, to accept challenges so that we can better attain Truth

Sadly, some people can't see the Bible outside of their denominational lense.

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Quite frankly, you are the classic example of that..... DISCUSSING with those of other positions can help ALL of us (including you.... INCLUDING YOU) realize when that's the case. But only if you will read and consider others.




- Josiah

Stravinsk said:

Jesus also said this:

John 12:48-50 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


See the underlined parts? It should be no surprise then that He says "Before Abraham was I AM".

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Your verses don't nullify the factual data that Jesus says very clearly he, himself, is YHWH. He is "I AM."

Josiah said:

Obviously not.

Your "logic" is the same as saying 'Donald Trump is Americans." But worse, since ELCA is a geopolitical/economic/legal institution (not a person) and thus isn't even A Lutheran. There are some 72 million Lutherans - and not one of them is the ELCA. But Lutherans don't define Lutheranism, the Book of Concord does (a point you know but you chose.... well.... it's obvious).

Clearly, you just wanted to evade the post you wanted to look like you were responding to with a totally irrelevant point meant to redirect the discussion.

Worse, you have been given opportunity after opportunity to say, "I misspoke" or "I was using hyperbole." You would have been forgiven. Instead, you are just digging yourself further and further - all with very, very flawed "logic." All springing from your denomination's assumptions of what God can and can't do. Post # 2 here should have been from you saying, "Sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't post what I meant, here's what I meant to say.." You would have been forgiven and the issue forgotten. Instead we find a pattern on this issue....

CH is a VERY "tolerant" and open forum. The Staff here gives enormous leeway, as do the posters. But they expect respect.... and honesty.






See post #21 . Since your "they" refers to a statement that obviously did mean "all Lutherans" well, everyone knows that you were saying "all". Again, you have been given opportunity after opportunity to say, "I didn't mean to imply, I should have said "some Lutherans" but have you? No. Which tells us all...






Friend, odd YOU (of all the posters here) should say that..... because I know of none here who is more persistent in echoing the party line, the spin of Reformed Anabaptists..... and you evade Scripture like the plague, never really responding to the Scriptures presented to you, always trying to use your "logic" to trump Scripture - even spin it 180 degrees the opposite of what they words state.


Look.... I like people with a stance, people who can articulate their position, people who regard truth as something that matters. And it seems to ME you often do that. On the issue of the Sacraments, you verbatim echo the party line of Reformed Anabaptists but you WILL NOT discuss it, and when people (respectfully) bring up things - you seem to get VERY frustrated, very evasive and trying to divert things (as this thread gives one example), and unfortunately, close to personal flaming. This tells ME you realize the flaws in your position but.....

IMO, one of the advantages of discussing theology in an ecumenical forum like CH is to gain other perspectives, to learn other views, to accept challenges so that we can better attain Truth






Quite frankly, you are the classic example of that..... DISCUSSING with those of other positions can help ALL of us (including you.... INCLUDING YOU) realize when that's the case. But only if you will read and consider others.




- Josiah

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The Book of Concord is just a basic catechism. Unfortunately for you, many Lutherans ignore it, but still claim membership.

Lämmchen said:

The line of thinking that a certain group believes such and such because a few people have strayed from what the group believes is ludicrous.

It's like saying Mennosotans believe that Satan is their God because a few people are Satanic.

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What is the largest Lutheran denomination in the USA?
What are their seminaries teaching and preaching? You want to marginalize the problem as an isolated thing, but it's not idolated. It's spreading like an infestation.

ImaginaryDay2 said:

You still didn't address any of Strav's (or any poster's) questions or concerns. Some intellectual honesty would be nice.

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Ask the exact question and I will attempt to answer.
Here's my question to you:
When Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" is he saying that He is YHWH?

Confessional Lutheran said:

Well, I hope I can try to provide some constructive input. The ELCA is regarded by many of us in the LCMS as an apostate organization that has no right to claim the name " Lutheran" in their title. That many prominent clerical figures in a seminary run by ELCA ( " Everything Luther Cautioned Against") .

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ound:

MennoSota said:

What is the largest Lutheran denomination in the USA?

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The ELCA is not Lutherans. Your "logic" is silly and is similar to insisting "Donald Trump is Americans" but worse since the ELCA is not a Lutheran, it's not even a person, it's a geopolitical/economic/legal entity. There are some 72 million Lutherans just currently and not one of them is the ELCA Denomination. And no one person (or even group thereof) defines Lutheran theology, the Book of Concord does. You KNOW this and yet.... well.... it's obvious.

I won't WASTE the time (because it's irrelevant to anything) but I'm pretty sure I could find a few individual Catholics or Orthodox or Reformed or Presbyterian or Anglican or Methodist individuals who convey some unorthodox view (I'm sure that would be the case in your denomination, too). Where your 'logic" is absurd is that ERGO everyone in that denomination is unorthodox in their theology and that those FEW individuals ARE the definition of the doctrine of that faith community. It's silly.

And of course, you only brought that up to try to change the subject and to evade what has been posted to you (it IS obvious).

And again, opportunity after opportunity has been afforded for you to apologize and to reword your comment, BUT instead you have TRIED to sound all "logical" but.... Early on in this thread, two of THE most "tolerant" and permissive posters we have here - ImaginaryDay2 and Albion (neither Lutheran) called you on this..... I'm sure expecting you to be intellectually honest.... but..... Friend, for you, there's something about the Sacraments that ... well.... it's obvious.

Josiah said:

The ELCA is not Lutherans. Your "logic" is silly and is similar to insisting "Donald Trump is Americans" but worse since the ELCA is not a Lutheran, it's not even a person, it's a geopolitical/economic/legal entity. There are some 72 million Lutherans just currently and not one of them is the ELCA Denomination. And no one person (or even group thereof) defines Lutheran theology, the Book of Concord does. You KNOW this and yet.... well.... it's obvious.

I won't WASTE the time (because it's irrelevant to anything) but I'm pretty sure I could find a few individual Catholics or Orthodox or Reformed or Presbyterian or Anglican or Methodist individuals who convey some unorthodox view (I'm sure that would be the case in your denomination, too). Where your 'logic" is absurd is that ERGO everyone in that denomination is unorthodox in their theology and that those FEW individuals ARE the definition of the doctrine of that faith community. It's silly.

And of course, you only brought that up to try to change the subject and to evade what has been posted to you (it IS obvious).

And again, opportunity after opportunity has been afforded for you to apologize and to reword your comment, BUT instead you have TRIED to sound all "logical" but.... Early on in this thread, two of THE most "tolerant" and permissive posters we have here - ImaginaryDay2 and Albion (neither Lutheran) called you on this..... I'm sure expecting you to be intellectually honest.... but..... Friend, for you, there's something about the Sacraments that ... well.... it's obvious.

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Hmmm...Evangelical Lutheran Church of America...ELCA
But...you say they're not Lutherans. Except they're the largest Lutheran denomination in the USA...with ease. Hmmm...