Can babies be conscious of their baptism?

Lamb · Feb 4, 2018

From this post in another thread (so as not to go off on a tangent I am starting a new thread): http://christianityhaven.com/showth...en-a-baptism-is-performed&p=124281#post124281

DHoffmann said:
I had no agenda in posting the video just thought it bazaar is all, but infant baptism probably has to do more with the babys parents being overly paranoid, its ok as long as they know later on they were baptised, i believe you should be conscious of it personally.

[MENTION=387]DHoffmann[/MENTION], you don't think babies are conscious during their baptisms? Do you think they're conscious when they're being fed?

Andrew · Feb 4, 2018

Lämmchen said:
From this post in another thread (so as not to go off on a tangent I am starting a new thread): http://christianityhaven.com/showth...en-a-baptism-is-performed&p=124281#post124281

[MENTION=387]DHoffmann[/MENTION], you don't think babies are conscious during their baptisms? Do you think they're conscious when they're being fed?

Well they aren't 'unconscious' but an infant is ignorant of everything just about except for being hungry, thirsty and tired.
I do not believe that a baby is aware that he or she was born into sin, how can a baby repent and be baptised then?
A forced infant baptism before receiving the word is IMO really an act of the parents and not a willful act of the individual.
The old church was so good at working on peoples fears and keeping control of its members that of course they would baptise their infants and perhaps THEN it was more relevant, but NOW these kids grow up with no fear of the Lord and never repent nor care to experience the NEW birth which, hey free will, the same will should be used to consciously and willfully get baptised for the remission of sin.
God will remember their sins no more, they will put on a new man, they will have conviction of the heart, they will walk in newness with the Lord HOWEVER this makes NO sense to an infant of a few weeks old. IMO

Lamb · Feb 4, 2018

DHoffmann said:
Well they aren't 'unconscious' but an infant is ignorant of everything just about except for being hungry, thirsty and tired.
I do not believe that a baby is aware that he or she was born into sin, how can a baby repent and be baptised then?
A forced infant baptism before receiving the word is IMO really an act of the parents and not a willful act of the individual.
The old church was so good at working on peoples fears and keeping control of its members that of course they would baptise their infants and perhaps THEN it was more relevant, but NOW these kids grow up with no fear of the Lord and never repent nor care to experience the NEW birth which, hey free will, the same will should be used to consciously and willfully get baptised for the remission of sin.
God will remember their sins no more, they will put on a new man, they will have conviction of the heart, they will walk in newness with the Lord HOWEVER this makes NO sense to an infant of a few weeks old. IMO

Is faith given to you as an adult because of God's mercy and grace? John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb when Mary who was pregnant with Jesus came near. That showed he was aware of God's presence because of faith.

Albion · Feb 4, 2018

DHoffmann said:
Well they aren't 'unconscious' but an infant is ignorant of everything just about except for being hungry, thirsty and tired.
I do not believe that a baby is aware that he or she was born into sin, how can a baby repent and be baptised then?

What makes you think that what applies to an adult convert must apply to younger people?

And how do you square what you've said here with all those churches that will not baptize a toddler for the reason you stated...but will baptize an eight year old on a confession of faith that amounts to "I know that Jesus loves me 'cause Mommy and Daddy told me so?"

Andrew · Feb 4, 2018

Lämmchen said:
Is faith given to you as an adult because of God's mercy and grace? John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb when Mary who was pregnant with Jesus came near. That showed he was aware of God's presence because of faith.

I'll take that.
I ponder sometimes about how I 'thought' as a newborn, if I really thought much at all or not... but because my memory only goes so far back I really don't know how aware or conscious I was, I don't remember leaping into my mothers belly. I do remember getting my diapers changed, I remember liking how the powder felt being sprinkled on my butt and how much pressure my mom used when wiping my butt with wet wipes

This whole subject is tough for me...
Is Gods mercy, love and grace only accessable after baptism?
I see no harm in infant baptism and I see no harm in an adult baptism likewise, or both, it's our choice (the adult one at least) which is why I got baptised again last year (by choice) even though I was baptised as a baby (by force) which I thank my parents for.
Again let me state that I am not against infant baptism and that I am not against ones decision to get baptised later on in life if they so choose to, I will encourage that person and support that person.

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NewCreation435 · Feb 4, 2018

Lämmchen said:
From this post in another thread (so as not to go off on a tangent I am starting a new thread): http://christianityhaven.com/showth...en-a-baptism-is-performed&p=124281#post124281

[MENTION=387]DHoffmann[/MENTION], you don't think babies are conscious during their baptisms? Do you think they're conscious when they're being fed?

So, your asking that question this way indicates you do believe that infant baptism is valid and therefore you are going to argue with anyone that doesn't agree with that premise?
Since you mentioned John the Baptist, when John the Baptist baptized people in preparation for the Messiah he told those who were cheating or stealing to first change their ways and then come and be baptized. Jesus himself told people to repent. When they did so, then they were baptized. One happened before the other. A baby is not consciously aware of their sin, so they don't repent. Their too busy doing other things like making baby noises and eating and sleeping.

Andrew · Feb 4, 2018

Albion said:
What makes you think that what applies to an adult convert must apply to younger people?

And how do you square what you've said here with all those churches that will not baptize a toddler for the reason you stated...but will baptize an eight year old on a confession of faith that amounts to "I know that Jesus loves me 'cause Mommy and Daddy told me so?"

The apostles didn't preach to little babies, Jesus had ascended and it was required that the people be baptised for the remission of sin, there was no outline on at what age the next generation (those about to be born or already infants) should be baptised. They do however preach to children so by all means I'm for infant baptism and not against adult baptism (both) either...

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MennoSota · Feb 4, 2018

Is faith given to an infant because a parent has them sprinkled by a priest or clergy?
Is God obligated to give the child faith because the parents invoked a baptism ceremony upon their child?
My answer is: There is no biblical support for such. At best there is a shady implication based upon a silent assumption.
More so, does a man-made confirmation curriculum seal the deal that a person has in fact been given the gift of faith?
My answer is: There is no biblical support for such. At best there is a shady implication based upon a silent assumption.

Albion · Feb 4, 2018

DHoffmann said:
The apostles didn't preach to little babies

Exactly. And that is why all the Bible quotes that people opposed to baptizing infants present to us as their proof are irrelevant. Those are Bible passages that deal with missionaries or disciples dealing with adults. Those people, being adults, of course have to know what their commitment is and make a confession of faith before being baptized. But it doesn't apply to infants and toddlers. For them, sponsors or witnesses make the promises to disavow the Devil, affirm a belief in the Lord, and promise to bring the child up in the faith. As has been noted here before, even at that, the child thus baptized does have to make a commitment to Christ at some later time in life.

Andrew · Feb 4, 2018

There is no real harm in infant baptism because even if they believe later on that they are secured and free to live however, they still have that belief, which is faith, which is like a seed. As long as the baby does not have to take part of drinking wine for communion

but I would like this thread to see my original point as well, is adult baptism discouraged or no? Same topic but just the other side of the coin.

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Lamb · Feb 4, 2018

"One of these little ones that believe in me" Mark 9:42. Jesus even spoke that infants can believe in Him and is evidence that God can work faith in even infants without waiting for them to grow up and give a sign to HIM that they're ready.

Albion · Feb 4, 2018

DHoffmann said:
There is no real harm in infant baptism because even if they believe later on that they are secured and free to live however, they still have that belief, which is faith, which is like a seed. As long as the baby does not have to take part of drinking wine for communion but I would like this thread to see my original point as well, is adult baptism discouraged or no? Same topic but just the other side of the coin.

Well, no. Adult baptism is not discouraged if the person has not yet been baptised. That would seem obvious. If he was previously baptized (as I believe you said you were) then it is technically impossible, even if you were to go through the motions again. And, more to the point, it's unnecessary.

Lamb · Feb 4, 2018

God isn't waiting around for man to show he's worthy of receiving God's grace and mercy.

Is it easier for God to bless a man with a lifetime of sin under his belt or a baby who can't even crawl yet?

Andrew · Feb 4, 2018

Albion said:
Well, no. Adult baptism is not discouraged if the person has not yet been baptised. That would seem obvious. If he was previously baptized (as I believe you said you were) then it is technically impossible, even if you were to go through the motions again. And, more to the point, it's unnecessary.

My niece isn't baptised because her dad doesn't want her to be, he is JW and my sister and he got divorced, my sister being raised Catholic but doesn't 'practice'.
My parents are upset which in turn upsets me, I would like her to be baptised for her sake just so that she can link back to that as a reminder of the faith so to gain a relationship with God but I told my parents she still has the choice when she gets older. I chose the second baptism because I always wanted a full body submersion as an adult for personal reasons. I see no contradiction in my choice, just wanted a renewal.

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Albion · Feb 4, 2018

DHoffmann said:
I chose the second baptism because I always wanted a full body submersion as an adult for personal reasons. I see no contradiction in my choice, just wanted a renewal.

Sort of like when people who have been married for a long time have a renewal of vows ceremony, then.

Andrew · Feb 4, 2018

Albion said:
Sort of like when people who have been married for a long time have a renewal of vows ceremony, then.

Sorta yes... a recoupling with the Church, I was away for a long long time.
I find more significance in the adult baptism however

Andrew · Feb 4, 2018

Lämmchen said:
"One of these little ones that believe in me" Mark 9:42. Jesus even spoke that infants can believe in Him and is evidence that God can work faith in even infants without waiting for them to grow up and give a sign to HIM that they're ready.

It was my understanding that Jesus sat a child down in the midst of his audience and said something along the lines of "unless you be as a little child you can not see the kingdom of God" which I assume he is saying a child is innocent and pure.

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Lamb · Feb 4, 2018

DHoffmann said:
It was my understanding that Jesus sat a child down in the midst of his audience and said something along the lines of "unless you be as a little child you can not see the kingdom of God" which I assume he is saying a child is innocent and pure.

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No one is righteous apart from Christ. We ALL need to be covered under His righteousness...even infants.

MennoSota · Feb 4, 2018

Albion said:
For them, sponsors or witnesses make the promises to disavow the Devil, affirm a belief in the Lord, and promise to bring the child up in the faith.

This is simply a parent making a vow. Water is unnecessary for such a vow.
The problem is...that is not what is taught in the concept of baptismal regeneration.
The concept is:
1) Infant baptism saves the child.
2) Confirmation solidifies the baptism as a means of grace being given by God.
It's a circular argument that ultimately begs the question.
What can be ascertained is that grace is not involved in the ceremonies.

MennoSota · Feb 4, 2018

Lämmchen said:
No one is righteous apart from Christ. We ALL need to be covered under His righteousness...even infants.

Who makes that decision, men or God?

Can babies be conscious of their baptism?

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