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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Thoughts on the 'annihilationism' Thread

    1. #51
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      ...Continued from Post #50

      Now let’s have a look at the other 4 scripture references that have been tendered in support of the idea of a conscious “soul” continuing alive when a person dies. These were submitted by atpollard and bring the total number of verses submitted in that context to 8.

      Those verses are Psalm 49:15, Psalm 139:8, Luke 16:19-31 and Luke 23:39-43.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Psalm 49:15: But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself. (NIV)

      That is totally in line with other statements of Scripture regarding rescue from death by resurrection.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Psalm 139:8: If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. (NIV)

      The context indicates the psalmist is acknowledging the futility of trying to escape God’s presence. Verse 9 demonstrates that the psalmist is employing poetic language.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Luke 16:19-31: (Readers please read this carefully. There is insufficient space to reproduce the full text here. Jesus recounts the tale of Lazarus and the rich man.)

      If the story is to be taken as literally true, then the Christian Gospel in its various proclaimed (and contradictory) forms is shown to be false. Salvation depends on how poor you are, not on faith. Interesting. Where does that leave wealthy “Christians” in Western nations when compared to the starving and diseased in economically disadvantaged countries? Maybe those wealthy ones had better sell all they have and give to the poor. Just in case.

      Not only that, but we are now informed that souls of dead people in Hades have tongues, and their sufferings can be eased by drops of water, wherever that comes from. Also, how long did Lazarus have to queue up to have his turn at Abraham’s bosom? How long did he get to stay there before he had to return to the end of the queue once again?

      Or could there be an entirely different meaning after all? Could Jesus have been recounting a parable to targeted people for a specific purpose?

      Does the text actually tell us to whom Jesus was directing this story? And what could that purpose have been, if so?

      Maybe the matter can be settled without question, simply answering the query “Did anyone of significance in Israel’s history have five brothers?”, and then answering this: “If so, who was it?”.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Luke 23:39-43: (Readers please reference this. It recounts the situation of Jesus and the thief on the cross.)

      As was pointed out in Post #48, the Holy Bible shows “this day” (“today” in some translations) to be a common Hebrew expression denoting emphasis and certainty. Like “I tell you right now” in English. The comma was added and positioned by translators to support a post-Nicene doctrine that they deemed needed bolstering.

      ================================================== ============================================

      But maybe the verses presented so far to support the idea of a conscious “soul” continuing alive when a person dies, weren’t the best available.

      We should remain open to considering the “dozens of scriptures”, the “forest of verses”, and “every NT verse that teaches the life of the soul after physical death”.

      If they in fact exist, that is.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    2. #52
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      ================================================== ============================================[/B]

      atpollard in Post #17:
      Psalm 49:15 NASB But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.
      Psalm 139:8 NASB If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

      Cessation of existence?
      Interesting. Let’s look at each statement in turn. (Other submitted Scriptures will be given attention later.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      Psalm 49:15 NASB: But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

      In some translations the untranslated, transliterated word “Sheol” there, is translated as “the grave”. For instance, KJV, ERRB, HiSB, IHOT, LBP, MKJV, NIV.

      And maybe we should consider the following:
      Job 33:18 NASB: He keeps back his soul from the pit [H7845], And his life from passing over into Sheol [H7585].
      Job 33:22 NASB: Then his soul draws near to the pit [H7845], And his life to those who bring death.
      Job 33:28 NASB: He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit [H7845], And my life shall see the light.
      Job 33:30 NASB: To bring back his soul from the pit [H7845], That he may be enlightened with the light of life.
      Psalms 30:3 NASB: O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol [H7585]; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit [H953].
      Psalms 30:3 NIV: O LORD, you brought me up from the grave [H7585]; you spared me from going down into the pit [H953].
      Psalm 35:7 NASB: For without cause they hid their net for me; Without cause they dug a pit [H7845] for my soul.
      Psalm 49:15 NASB: But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol [H7585], For He will receive me. Selah.
      Psalm 49:15 NIV: But God will redeem my life from the grave [H7585]; he will surely take me to himself. Selah
      Psalm 89:48 NASB: What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol [H7585]? Selah.
      Psalm 89:48 NIV: What man can live and not see death, or save himself from the power of the grave [H7585]? Selah
      Isaiah 38:17 NASB: Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is You who has kept my soul from the pit [H7845] of nothingness, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.

      Strong's H953 = a pit hole (especially one used as a cistern or a prison), pit, well, cistern.
      ………………….. Destination of: the person.
      Strong's H7585 = Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit, the underworld, righteous not abandoned to it, of the place of exile (fig), of extreme degradation in sin; (prior to post-apostolic times, the demonstrable only meaning was) the grave.
      ………………….. Destination of: a person’s life, a person’s soul, a person.
      Strong's H7845 = a pit (especially as a trap), destruction, grave; (in post apostolic times, also) hell.
      ………………….. Destination of: a person’s soul.

      ================================================== ============================================[/B]

      So, a dead person’s soul can supposedly be: trapped in a physical pit; or in the grave; or destroyed; or, in terms of pagan Greek philosophy, in “Hades” (whatever that means – the meaning seems far from concrete).

      A dead person can supposedly be: trapped in a physical pit; or in “Hades”.

      A dead person’s life can supposedly be: in “Hades”.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Do Readers detect a measure of post-apostolic confusion in this matter? (The translations are post-Apostolic. “The grave” is consistent with companion OT revelation.)



      Continued...
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

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    4. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      ================================================== ============================================[/B]

      atpollard in Post #17:


      Interesting. Let’s look at each statement in turn. (Other submitted Scriptures will be given attention later.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      Psalm 49:15 NASB: But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

      In some translations the untranslated, transliterated word “Sheol” there, is translated as “the grave”. For instance, KJV, ERRB, HiSB, IHOT, LBP, MKJV, NIV.

      And maybe we should consider the following:
      Job 33:18 NASB: He keeps back his soul from the pit [H7845], And his life from passing over into Sheol [H7585].
      Job 33:22 NASB: Then his soul draws near to the pit [H7845], And his life to those who bring death.
      Job 33:28 NASB: He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit [H7845], And my life shall see the light.
      Job 33:30 NASB: To bring back his soul from the pit [H7845], That he may be enlightened with the light of life.
      Psalms 30:3 NASB: O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol [H7585]; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit [H953].
      Psalms 30:3 NIV: O LORD, you brought me up from the grave [H7585]; you spared me from going down into the pit [H953].
      Psalm 35:7 NASB: For without cause they hid their net for me; Without cause they dug a pit [H7845] for my soul.
      Psalm 49:15 NASB: But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol [H7585], For He will receive me. Selah.
      Psalm 49:15 NIV: But God will redeem my life from the grave [H7585]; he will surely take me to himself. Selah
      Psalm 89:48 NASB: What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol [H7585]? Selah.
      Psalm 89:48 NIV: What man can live and not see death, or save himself from the power of the grave [H7585]? Selah
      Isaiah 38:17 NASB: Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is You who has kept my soul from the pit [H7845] of nothingness, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.

      Strong's H953 = a pit hole (especially one used as a cistern or a prison), pit, well, cistern.
      ………………….. Destination of: the person.
      Strong's H7585 = Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit, the underworld, righteous not abandoned to it, of the place of exile (fig), of extreme degradation in sin; (prior to post-apostolic times, the demonstrable only meaning was) the grave.
      ………………….. Destination of: a person’s life, a person’s soul, a person.
      Strong's H7845 = a pit (especially as a trap), destruction, grave; (in post apostolic times, also) hell.
      ………………….. Destination of: a person’s soul.

      ================================================== ============================================[/B]

      So, a dead person’s soul can supposedly be: trapped in a physical pit; or in the grave; or destroyed; or, in terms of pagan Greek philosophy, in “Hades” (whatever that means – the meaning seems far from concrete).

      A dead person can supposedly be: trapped in a physical pit; or in “Hades”.

      A dead person’s life can supposedly be: in “Hades”.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Do Readers detect a measure of post-apostolic confusion in this matter? (The translations are post-Apostolic. “The grave” is consistent with companion OT revelation.)



      Continued...
      Is it also possible that since this is Old Testament that it is referring to the righteous side of hell which now is empty?
      Isaiah 40:31

    5. #54
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      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #52, the total confusion and inconsistency relating to the translation of (the meaning assigned to) the Hebrew word “sheol” was highlighted, as was the consistency of the meaning “grave” with the rest of Scripture.

      In reply, Psalms 91 in Post #53, in responded thus:
      Is it also possible that since this is Old Testament that it is referring to the righteous side of hell which now is empty?
      ================================================== ============================================

      Well, unfortunately that proposal requires the ignoring of the Inspired Holy Scriptures (in both Old and New Testaments) that state that rescue from death (the only rescue from Biblical death) is by resurrection.

      One also needs to retrospectively lay a false interpretation onto Luke 16:20-31 (Lazarus and the rich man). The falsehood of that interpretation is obvious to anyone with a mind clear of pre-conditioning. That false interpretation both contradicts the true Gospel, and even highlights idiocies within the doctrine (“the righteous side of hell”, accompanied by an unrighteous side) that that passage is invoked to support.

      Consider for instance:
      - The stated basis for salvation is a person’s wealth or poverty;
      - Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the unrighteous side of hell have tongues and eyes; as do those in "the righteous side of hell";
      - There is water available to place on those tongues;
      - Souls in the righteous side of hell and in the unrighteous side of hell can see each other, hear each other, and talk to each other;
      - Spirit beings (souls) in the unrighteous side of hell are being tormented before they are judged.

      And consider Romans 3:10, referring to statements written before Jesus’ atoning death:
      As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

      ================================================== ============================================

      Naturally, all sorts of ideas can be floated in defence of the retrospective interpretation. For instance Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25 are normally resorted to – all of which are negated by Matthew 27:57-60 for instance. (And their presention offers only emotionally satisfying "evidence".)

      And totally ignored is what Jesus Himself had taught the family of Lazarus (the one whom Jesus loved – John 11:3) with respect to family reunion – Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day (John 11:24).

      And yet again, totally ignored is what the Apostle Paul explained under divine inspiration. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:
      13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
      14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
      15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
      16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



      The truth revealed by Holy Scripture contradicts the post-Nicene accretion (addition) proposed in Post #53.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    6. #55
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      ================================================== ============================================

      jsimms435 in Post #42:
      All the posts prove in your last post is that the resurrection is mentioned and will happen. It doesn't support your view of cessation of existent. It doesn't say anything about where the spirit of the man or woman goes after the body dies. It's irrelevant to our topic
      So:
      - Scriptures which demonstrate unequivocally that the Apostolic Gospel repeatedly taught resurrection from the dead to be God’s chosen and only remedy for rescuing individuals from the unconscious death state, are declared irrelevant;
      - Even though that is the state of the dead and the rescue mechanism that God had revealed in His inspired revelation to the Hebrews;
      - And that same state and rescue mechanism are repeated in inspired NT statements;
      - The inspired OT and NT statements are declared irrelevant because they say nothing about a continuing conscious existence after death – even though that concept was never a part of God’s Holy Revelation.

      Interesting.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Here are some references previously posted by me in this thread. Some of them indicate that death is death full stop. Others show that resurrection was the only mechanism of rescue from death being proclaimed in the Gospel. Individually and together, they are in direct opposition to Christendom’s post-Nicene teaching of Christians going to Heaven at death.

      Please take the time to review each one carefully. The Reader will find it to be an illuminating and instructive exercise.
      Post #5 2 Timothy 3:14-17, Matthew 22:23-32, Mark 12:18-27, and Luke 20:27-38, Acts 23:6-8
      Post #24 (courtesy of another Poster) Psalms 104:29, Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:6, 2 Kings 20:1, Job 17:13, Job 14:1-2
      Post #27 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
      Post #39 John 11:23-24
      Post #41 Acts 4:1-2, Acts 17:18, Acts 17:32, Acts 23:6, Acts 24:14-15, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22: 21, Philippians 3:11, Hebrews 6:1-2, Hebrews 11:35, Ecclesiastes 9:10, Psalm 115:17, Psalms 146:4, Isaiah 26:19


      26 references in all. (The list isn’t exhaustive, but it is more than sufficient.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      I submit that the New Testament verses presented above are indeed totally relevant, because they demonstrate the total absence of any teaching within the Apostolic Gospel about a Christian going to Heaven when he or she dies. They also indicate nothing about a non-Christian going to some place of horrible consciousness when that person dies. Those references above can not be blithely dismissed, as has been attempted. They agree unreservedly with God’s Holy revelation to Israel. (And the list isn’t exhaustive.)



      Continued…
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    7. #56
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      ================================================== ============================================

      I submit that the significant and meaningful list of NT (and OT) verses presented in Post #41 are indeed totally relevant, because they demonstrate the total absence of any teaching within the Apostolic Gospel about a Christian going to Heaven when he or she dies, and indicate nothing about a non-Christian going to some place of horrible consciousness when that person dies. Those references in Post #41 can not be blithely dismissed as has been attempted. They agree unreservedly with God’s Holy revelation to Israel. (And the list isn’t exhaustive.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      But why believe me? What does God’s Holy Revelation tell us that the basic Gospel was?

      Hebrews 6:1,2: “1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
      2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


      Resurrection from death? Notably Present. Going to be with Jesus when Christians die? Notably Absent.

      ================================================== ============================================

      On the basis of that, I believe it is not inappropriate for me to request yet again (originally in Post #43) detail of the supposed proof scriptures presented in the “Annihilationism” thread – namely, the “dozens of scriptures” referred to by jsimms435 in Post #8, the “forest of verses” referred to by Mennesota in Post #2, and “every NT verse that teaches the life of the soul after physical death” referred to by Albion in Post #19 (maybe just two or three dozen of those scriptures from each person will suffice, if there are indeed several dozens of them in the forest).

      It is also pertinent to request from atpollard, the verses he referred to in Post #45 - Actually, references to the afterlife are found throughout Job and seldom tied to the word 'sheol' [which does mean 'grave' rather than 'Hell' in Job.]

      I wish to give give appropriate attention to each of those verses individually. Surely that is a reasonable request.


      And I really would like to look at those Ezekiel verses referred to by MennoSota in Post #31.


      I always like to let Holy Scripture speak.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

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