• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
    Results 11 to 20 of 51

    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Thoughts on the 'annihilationism' Thread

    1. #11
      Albion's Avatar
      Albion is offline Veteran Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      1,744
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      8,808
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      12,621
      Level
      32
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      89.91%
      Rep Power
      389
      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      I (Pedrito) did not want to leave myself (himself) open to another form of criticism designed to take attention away from thoughts being presented.

      I apologise (Pedrito apologises) to MennoSota and any others who may find the third party approach off-putting.


      It is hoped that the above overview has been helpful to some.[/color]
      It's not necessary to put a name into the post in place of the personal pronoun, however. Wasn't that evident in this message, for example?

    2. #12
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
      56
      Married
      Mood:
      Sad
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Posts
      760
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,102
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (10,500 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      5,650
      Level
      23
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      35.8%
      Rep Power
      176
      I can offer some personal speculation towards answering these questions:

      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      Why is there such a lack of unadulterated Scriptural teaching in normal churches? (An example of that was presented in Posts #1 and #5, and information in that context presented.)
      Lazy 'bible teachers' who view reading the latest 'Purpose Driven Life' type book, complete with workbooks, as "Bible Study", coupled with church goers with the attention span of an eight year old.
      While purely speculation on my part, I wonder if Church might have become too 'seeker friendly' ... to the point where it is a shadow of itself often lacking in any true power or relevence.

      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      Why is there such a need felt to adopt diversionary tactics to draw attention away from particular Holy Revelation (from the Great God of creation and salvation), instead of embracing it?
      Boredom. You (Perdito) have a tendency to open with a statement of what you are going to say or do or present, but then spend the next several days/posts wandering [it appears aimlessly from the original statement] down a series of 'bunny trails' that are allegedly laying a foundation for what you wanted to discuss. I can't speak for others, but I find myself growing impatient for the actual point. In this case, what does anything in post #1 or post #5 have to do with annihilationism?
      Boredom leads to snide comments.
      I think it is less about diversion and more a cry to "make your point" already.

      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      Why do we see repeated attempts to suppress certain aspects of Inspired Scriptural Revelation? (As evidenced both in Post #6, and in multiplicity throughout CH.)
      I don't think that Post #6 has anything to do with doctrines or creeds. I find it hard to imagine any of the Scriptures you referenced being controversial. The Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection of the dead, what creed or doctrine could be in conflict with that and require that the Sadducees did believe in an afterlife? Most Christians never give the Sadducees any thought at all.
      Last edited by atpollard; 02-14-2018 at 05:02 PM. Reason: verb tense

    3. #13
      Albion's Avatar
      Albion is offline Veteran Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      1,744
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      8,808
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      12,621
      Level
      32
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      89.91%
      Rep Power
      389
      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      I don't think that Post #6 has anything to do with doctrines or creeds.
      Agreed. Asking "So what is your question?" hardly seems to amount to an "attempt(s) to suppress certain aspects of Inspired Scriptural Revelation."

    4. #14
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      593
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      3,766
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      2,720
      Level
      17
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      0.24%
      Rep Power
      68
      Wow!

      I didn’t realise that starting this thread would lead to so much fun.

      In case people didn’t realise, the title of the thread is “Thoughts on the ‘annihilationism’ Thread”, not “Questions about the ‘annihilationism’ Thread

      So much for my being taken to task in Posts #6 and #8 for not confining myself to asking questions. Could that taking to task have been a ruse to draw attention away from Scriptural truth revealed in Posts #1 and (especially) #5 and #7?

      ================================================== ============================================

      It looks like a little more time would be wisely spent driving a few more nails into the coffin lid of the diversions that have appeared so far.

      Because as each diversion is addressed, it emphasises the very information that the diversion was supposed to obscure.

      ================================================== ============================================

      jsimms435 in Post #6: They also thought the world was flat and you could fall of it during that time.

      So what if they did? The Pharisees’ understanding about people not being conscious after death was squarely based on Holy Scripture. (Relevant Scriptures were presented in the "annihilationism" thread by someone else, and lo and behold, those Scriptures were subjected to rejective ploys instead of being embraced. That simply proves that those clear statements of Holy Scripture are considered dangerous to established, cherished belief.) And, as pointed out, if the Pharisees did believe the world was flat, so did the formulators of the “Nicene Creed” of 381 AD.

      But, as pointed out well by atpollard in Post #10, it was already known over 100 years before Jesus walked the Earth, that the Earth was spherical, not flat. I already had that information, so I thank atpollard for drawing it to jsimms435’s attention. Either jsimms435’s statement that the Pharisees believed the Earth was flat, was based on his being uninformed, or it was indeed a contrived attempt to discredit Scriptural, but demonstrably unwelcome, understanding that the Pharisees (including the Apostle Paul) had on this matter.

      I merely pointed out in my former post, the illogicality of jsimms435’s shot at the Pharisees’ Scripture-based beliefs, when by so doing he was also shooting the developers of the “Nicene Creed” of 381 AD in the foot.



      Continued...(Because diversions have continued to surface.)
      Last edited by Pedrito; 02-17-2018 at 05:34 PM.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    5. #15
      jsimms435's Avatar
      jsimms435 is offline moderator
      Moderator
      Married
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,113
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      11,528
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      11,484
      Level
      31
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      61.69%
      Rep Power
      327
      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      Pedrito was fascinated by the ‘annihilation’ thread.

      He did not begin to review it until it had reached an advanced state.

      Once he did, it seemed to raise more questions than it answered.

      It was shut down before he could post comments therein.

      ================================================== ============================================

      In this first post, Pedrito will offer some general information that hopefully will be helpful for some readers of the ‘annihilation’ thread.

      That includes the author of Post #65 of the ‘annihilation’ thread, who wrote:
      ...From my understanding the problem with the Jewish priesthood was that they focused too much on earthly riches and power and had no threat in an after life...

      If Pedrito understands correctly, there were three groups that had authority within the intertwined Jewish religion and culture of the day: Scribes, Sadducees, Pharisees.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The Scribes could be broadly described as senior public servants whose purview included both religious and civil matters. The copying of texts fell under their umbrella.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The Sadducees were characterised by acknowledging only the Torah (the Law – first five books of what Christians call the Old Testament), and rejecting what was commonly called “the Prophets” (writings acknowledged by the other Jews to be holy writings). They denied any rescue from death. Death was the end. You can remember that, by thinking that is why they were sad-you-see.

      (Pedrito finds it difficult to understand what motivated them to attempt to live holy lives and honour God were there no positive or negative payoff after death. But then, Pedrito doesn’t understand what motivates a lot of people.)



      Continued...
      I would say you have summed up nicely what the different groups believed. You said in post #1 that when you reviewed the original thread that it raised questions for you. I then asked you in post 6 what questions it raised for you. Is your question did these groups the scribes, the Pharisees and the Sadducees believe in an afterlife? I think your summary is accurate as far as I can tell. Sometimes death seems to be referred in the Old Testament to something similiar to what is called soul sleep today or a lack of conscious thought

    6. #16
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      593
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      3,766
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      2,720
      Level
      17
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      0.24%
      Rep Power
      68
      (This is not the continuation from my former Post. It is a particular insertion between the two.)

      I thank jsimms435 for his polite explanation in Post #15.

      ================================================== ============================================

      I here take the opportunity to point out that neither the Hebrew Scriptures nor the Greek Scriptures teach “soul sleep”. Careful study points to their revealing “cessation of existence” at death, for which the only remedy is a future resurrection. Even the core creeds contain that background understanding.

      “Soul sleep” is a label invented by the “immortal soul” camp to discourage people from looking into the matter properly, and from thus discovering what the Scriptures actually say.

      Were that not the case, why invent a label that is at odds with what the Holy Bible actually reveals?

      Why not apply the correct label – “cessation of existence” instead of the diversionary “soul sleep”?

      ================================================== ============================================

      Readers please understand, I am merely speaking generally here – bringing something to light and thereby making people aware of the conditioning that they have been subjected to throughout their religious lives – conditioning which they have understandably accepted without question until now.

      And once again I propose that:
      - By determining with accuracy (from Scripture alone) what the original Apostolic Gospel was;
      - And then determining:
      – Which of the individually considered, Post-Apostolic doctrinal amendments were demonstrably inspired by God;
      – And which of the individually considered, Post-Apostolic doctrinal amendments were demonstrably not;
      - That would result in:
      – Clarifying light being thrown on what God’s undeniable truth really is;
      – And the current, confusing (ungodly) hotch-potch of conflicting church doctrines, being exposed as a totally unacceptable situation.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Is any Reader willing to endure the disdain and ostracism that will almost certainly result, if they follow that path of investigation?
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    7. #17
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
      56
      Married
      Mood:
      Sad
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Posts
      760
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,102
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (10,500 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      5,650
      Level
      23
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      35.8%
      Rep Power
      176
      Psalm 49:15 NASB But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.
      Psalm 139:8 NASB If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

      Cessation of existence?

    8. #18
      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
      44
      Widow/Widower
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2016
      Posts
      3,126
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      4,149
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (14,625 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      12,689
      Level
      32
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      97.46%
      Rep Power
      0
      Speaking of Sheol...

      https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=H7585&t=KJV

      שְׁאוֹל

      without the diacritics (the little dots and squiggles above and below Hebrew letters indicating vowel sounds) it is the same word as:

      https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=H7586&t=KJV

      שָׁאוּל

      ...which is the name of the first Hebrew King, that God said the people chose because they rejected Him (1 Samuel 8:6-7)

      The word means both "death/grave" and "desired"

      It is the original name of the so called "apostle to the Gentiles" Saul/Paul of Tarsus.

      Btw, the diacritics weren't part of the original Hebrew.

      But I'm sure this is all just a great coincidence and all...

    9. #19
      jsimms435's Avatar
      jsimms435 is offline moderator
      Moderator
      Married
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,113
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      11,528
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      11,484
      Level
      31
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      61.69%
      Rep Power
      327
      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      (This is not the continuation from my former Post. It is a particular insertion between the two.)

      I thank jsimms435 for his polite explanation in Post #15.

      ================================================== ============================================

      I here take the opportunity to point out that neither the Hebrew Scriptures nor the Greek Scriptures teach “soul sleep”. Careful study points to their revealing “cessation of existence” at death, for which the only remedy is a future resurrection. Even the core creeds contain that background understanding.

      “Soul sleep” is a label invented by the “immortal soul” camp to discourage people from looking into the matter properly, and from thus discovering what the Scriptures actually say.

      Were that not the case, why invent a label that is at odds with what the Holy Bible actually reveals?

      Why not apply the correct label – “cessation of existence” instead of the diversionary “soul sleep”?

      ================================================== ============================================

      Readers please understand, I am merely speaking generally here – bringing something to light and thereby making people aware of the conditioning that they have been subjected to throughout their religious lives – conditioning which they have understandably accepted without question until now.

      And once again I propose that:
      - By determining with accuracy (from Scripture alone) what the original Apostolic Gospel was;
      - And then determining:
      – Which of the individually considered, Post-Apostolic doctrinal amendments were demonstrably inspired by God;
      – And which of the individually considered, Post-Apostolic doctrinal amendments were demonstrably not;
      - That would result in:
      – Clarifying light being thrown on what God’s undeniable truth really is;
      – And the current, confusing (ungodly) hotch-potch of conflicting church doctrines, being exposed as a totally unacceptable situation.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Is any Reader willing to endure the disdain and ostracism that will almost certainly result, if they follow that path of investigation?
      So your claiming that when a person dies they cease to exist and then they are resurrected at the last day, which if they cease to exist then how are they resurrected? Please back up what your saying with scripture. I don't see any evidence that what your saying is true in scripture and I've read it over numerous times in the last 34 years

    10. #20
      Albion's Avatar
      Albion is offline Veteran Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      1,744
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      8,808
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      12,621
      Level
      32
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      89.91%
      Rep Power
      389
      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      So your claiming that when a person dies they cease to exist and then they are resurrected at the last day, which if they cease to exist then how are they resurrected?
      It's reincarnation, IOW. But there is almost nothing in Scripture to support that particular POV.

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •