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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Thoughts on the 'annihilationism' Thread

    1. #1
      Pedrito's Avatar
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      Thoughts on the 'annihilationism' Thread

      Pedrito was fascinated by the ‘annihilation’ thread.

      He did not begin to review it until it had reached an advanced state.

      Once he did, it seemed to raise more questions than it answered.

      It was shut down before he could post comments therein.

      ================================================== ============================================

      In this first post, Pedrito will offer some general information that hopefully will be helpful for some readers of the ‘annihilation’ thread.

      That includes the author of Post #65 of the ‘annihilation’ thread, who wrote:
      ...From my understanding the problem with the Jewish priesthood was that they focused too much on earthly riches and power and had no threat in an after life...

      If Pedrito understands correctly, there were three groups that had authority within the intertwined Jewish religion and culture of the day: Scribes, Sadducees, Pharisees.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The Scribes could be broadly described as senior public servants whose purview included both religious and civil matters. The copying of texts fell under their umbrella.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The Sadducees were characterised by acknowledging only the Torah (the Law – first five books of what Christians call the Old Testament), and rejecting what was commonly called “the Prophets” (writings acknowledged by the other Jews to be holy writings). They denied any rescue from death. Death was the end. You can remember that, by thinking that is why they were sad-you-see.

      (Pedrito finds it difficult to understand what motivated them to attempt to live holy lives and honour God were there no positive or negative payoff after death. But then, Pedrito doesn’t understand what motivates a lot of people.)



      Continued...
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

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    3. #2
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      MennoSota finds talking in the third person annoying, which is why MennoSota pays little to no attention when a poster talks in the third person...

    4. #3
      DHoffmann's Avatar
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      DHoffmann likes the third person routine, adds character and reminds me of Petry from Land before time.

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

    5. #4
      Pedrito's Avatar
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      Pedrito speaks in the third person because another poster was taken to task (by someone who didn’t like the thoughts he was presenting) for using the word “I”.

      Pedrito had formerly been accused (falsely as was proven) of flaming, for the same reason.

      From memory, both occurrences were before MennoSota’s time here.

      I (Pedrito) did not want to leave myself (himself) open to another form of criticism designed to take attention away from thoughts being presented.

      I apologise (Pedrito apologises) to MennoSota and any others who may find the third party approach off-putting.

      The only reason for that approach is the preservation of attention on thoughts being presented.


      However, if Pedrito were to be given honest assurance that no accusations of a personal nature would be coming his way in the future, I would be happy to revert to using the personal pronoun that I have been loath to use for some time.

      Or maybe I'll give it a go anyway, and see what happens.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    6. #5
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      ...Continued

      In Post #1, we looked at the Scribes and the Sadducees. Now it’s the Pharisees’ turn.


      The Pharisees accepted both the Law and the Prophets (the Protestant Old Testament) as being holy writings given by God to them. They believed that rescue from death would be by a future resurrection, as their holy writings indicated.

      Apart from incursions of pagan influence, as had happened multiple times in Israel’s past, and as could be expected from the dominant Greek and Roman cultures, there was no notion of consciousness after death. Their understanding was based on God’s Holy Revelation to them – the same revelation that the Apostle Paul acknowledged to be God’s Holy Revelation to us (2 Timothy 3:14-17) – and it’s still there for us to read and believe.

      (The only Scripture in existence when Paul wrote those words, was what we call the “Old Testament”.)

      They did understand that after the resurrection there would be some kind of worldwide judgement.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The Sadducean perspective is clearly demonstrated in, for instance, Matthew 22:23-32, Mark 12:18-27, and Luke 20:27-38. I believe that that described situation was in the standard arsenal of weapons used to stump the Pharisees in debate. We also learn that after the resurrection there will no longer be any human reproduction.

      That the Pharisees taught resurrection as the means of deliverance from death, as opposed to some continuing form of conscious life after death, is shown remarkably well in Acts 23:6-8 for instance.


      It is hoped that the above overview has been helpful to some.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

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    8. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      ...Continued

      In Post #1, we looked at the Scribes and the Sadducees. Now it’s the Pharisees’ turn.


      The Pharisees accepted both the Law and the Prophets (the Protestant Old Testament) as being holy writings given by God to them. They believed that rescue from death would be by a future resurrection, as their holy writings indicated.

      Apart from incursions of pagan influence, as had happened multiple times in Israel’s past, and as could be expected from the dominant Greek and Roman cultures, there was no notion of consciousness after death. Their understanding was based on God’s Holy Revelation to them – the same revelation that the Apostle Paul acknowledged to be God’s Holy Revelation to us (2 Timothy 3:14-17) – and it’s still there for us to read and believe.

      (The only Scripture in existence when Paul wrote those words, was what we call the “Old Testament”.)

      They did understand that after the resurrection there would be some kind of worldwide judgement.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The Sadducean perspective is clearly demonstrated in, for instance, Matthew 22:23-32, Mark 12:18-27, and Luke 20:27-38. I believe that that described situation was in the standard arsenal of weapons used to stump the Pharisees in debate. We also learn that after the resurrection there will no longer be any human reproduction.

      That the Pharisees taught resurrection as the means of deliverance from death, as opposed to some continuing form of conscious life after death, is shown remarkably well in Acts 23:6-8 for instance.


      It is hoped that the above overview has been helpful to some.
      So what is your question? They also thought the world was flat and you could fall of it during that time.

    9. #7
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      From Post #6 in this thread:

      So what is your question?
      That was in response to information presented in Post #1 and Post #5.

      ================================================== ============================================

      However, in Post #1, I stated:

      In this first post [[which spilled over into the second]], I [[originally Pedrito]] will offer some general information that hopefully will be helpful for some readers of the ‘annihilation’ thread.
      Based on that, I now do have a question: What prompted that Poster to ask “So what is your question?”?

      ================================================== ============================================

      Also from Post #6 in this thread:

      They also thought the world was flat and you could fall of it during that time.
      Clear deflection. Readers note.

      The clear teaching of God’s Holy Word, the Bible – the teaching mentioned in Post #5 – teaching which is totally in line with the Nicene Creed and Apostolic revelation – is being likened to believing the Earth is flat.

      And since the first clear teaching in post-apostolic Christendom regarding the Earth being spherical was by Bede (c. 672–735) in his treatise “The Reckoning of Time”, it would seem that the formulators of the “Nicene Creed” also believed that the Earth was flat.

      Does the author of Post #6 (for the sake of consistency) suggest that we discount the “Nicene Creed” because of that?

      ================================================== ============================================

      But someone might try to assign that understanding (the Earth’s sphericity) to an earlier source within Christendom – Bishop Isidore of Seville (560–636) – because of his describing the earth as “round”.

      In that case, it must be recognised that Bishop Isidore was using the same kind of terminology as Holy Scripture:

      Isaiah 40:22: It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in

      ================================================== ============================================

      So, God’s Holy Word stands, in this matter.

      As it always does, as it always has done, and as it always will do.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    10. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      From Post #6 in this thread:



      That was in response to information presented in Post #1 and Post #5.

      ================================================== ============================================

      However, in Post #1, I stated:



      Based on that, I now do have a question: What prompted that Poster to ask “So what is your question?”?

      ================================================== ============================================

      Also from Post #6 in this thread:



      Clear deflection. Readers note.

      The clear teaching of God’s Holy Word, the Bible – the teaching mentioned in Post #5 – teaching which is totally in line with the Nicene Creed and Apostolic revelation – is being likened to believing the Earth is flat.

      And since the first clear teaching in post-apostolic Christendom regarding the Earth being spherical was by Bede (c. 672–735) in his treatise “The Reckoning of Time”, it would seem that the formulators of the “Nicene Creed” also believed that the Earth was flat.

      Does the author of Post #6 (for the sake of consistency) suggest that we discount the “Nicene Creed” because of that?

      ================================================== ============================================

      But someone might try to assign that understanding (the Earth’s sphericity) to an earlier source within Christendom – Bishop Isidore of Seville (560–636) – because of his describing the earth as “round”.

      In that case, it must be recognised that Bishop Isidore was using the same kind of terminology as Holy Scripture:

      Isaiah 40:22: It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in

      ================================================== ============================================

      So, God’s Holy Word stands, in this matter.

      As it always does, as it always has done, and as it always will do.
      Your stating facts, your not asking a question. You said the previous thread brought up for you more questions but you haven't asked them. How can we participate in a discussion with you when you won't ask the questions you have?

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    12. #9
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      From Post #8 in this thread:

      Your stating facts, your not asking a question. You said the previous thread brought up for you more questions but you haven't asked them. How can we participate in a discussion with you when you won't ask the questions you have?
      Actually, we must thank the author of Post #8 (and the person who issued a “like” for that post), for highlighting three (until now implied) questions that were going to be presented later; the intention had been to build up to them. (They are not the only questions planned to be addressed.)

      Those questions are:
      - Why is there such a lack of unadulterated Scriptural teaching in normal churches? (An example of that was presented in Posts #1 and #5, and information in that context presented.)
      - Why is there such a need felt to adopt diversionary tactics to draw attention away from particular Holy Revelation (from the Great God of creation and salvation), instead of embracing it?
      - Why do we see repeated attempts to suppress certain aspects of Inspired Scriptural Revelation? (As evidenced both in Post #6, and in multiplicity throughout CH.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      The answer to all three questions is quite simple.

      Holy Scripture is at odds with (and therefore condemns) a number of post-Nicene (and therefore post-Apostolic) doctrines – some of which enjoy broad acceptance, but others of which are fought over.

      It is as simple as that.

      And loyalty to post-Nicene doctrines and the organisations which hold them, takes precedence over loyalty to Inspired Revelation from God – the God whom people with those misplaced loyalties claim to worship, and even serve.


      Were that not so, why do we see all the diversionary tactics???


      ================================================== ============================================


      Having addressed that (temporarily effective) diversion, attention will now return to the thoughts triggered by the “annihilationism” thread. Many of those thoughts will contain, or will have been triggered by, identifiable questions implied in the text. I did say “It was shut down before he [[Pedrito; I]] could post comments therein”. Did I not?
      Last edited by Pedrito; 02-11-2018 at 06:07 PM.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    13. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      The clear teaching of God’s Holy Word, the Bible – the teaching mentioned in Post #5 – teaching which is totally in line with the Nicene Creed and Apostolic revelation – is being likened to believing the Earth is flat.

      And since the first clear teaching in post-apostolic Christendom regarding the Earth being spherical was by Bede (c. 672–735) in his treatise “The Reckoning of Time”, it would seem that the formulators of the “Nicene Creed” also believed that the Earth was flat.
      I thought you (Pedrito) might find this interesting:

      Eratosthenes of Cyrene (/ɛrəˈtɒsθəniːz/; Greek: Ἐρατοσθένης ὁ Κυρηναῖος, IPA: [eratostʰénɛːs]; c. 276 BC – c. 195/194 BC) was a Greek mathematician, geographer, poet, astronomer, and music theorist. He was a man of learning, becoming the chief librarian at the Library of Alexandria. He invented the discipline of geography, including the terminology used today.

      He is best known for being the first person to calculate the circumference of the Earth, which he did by comparing altitudes of the mid-day sun at two places a known North-South distance apart. His calculation was remarkably accurate. He was also the first to calculate the tilt of the Earth's axis (again with remarkable accuracy). Additionally, he may have accurately calculated the distance from the Earth to the Sun and invented the leap day. He created the first map of the world, incorporating parallels and meridians based on the available geographic knowledge of his era.

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