Assurance of salvation

Can the verses be read as describing people who did good but did not have a real faith to go along with that?

tango said:

Perhaps, but in Matthew 7 it is clear that the people were thinking they had prophesied, cast out demons, and done many wonders, in the name of Jesus. That suggests they had faith or they wouldn't be attempting to do such things.

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I guess that it's the "in the name of Jesus" part that I hesitate to see as proof of there being Faith in Christ as Lord and as one's personal savior.

tango said:

I'm posting this in Speculative Theology because it seems like something that could easily drift from orthodox Christianity.

One of the key features of the Christian faith compared to other faiths is that we don't expect to earn our way into heaven - thanks to the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ we can be assured of our salvation. But even that basic notion seems to fly in the face of some of what Jesus himself had to say.

In Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus says how "not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom" and goes on to suggest that people who truly thought they were acting in the name of Jesus will get a nasty surprise.

At the end of Matthew 25 Jesus talks of dividing the sheep from the goats, and it is clear that the goats on the left will be asking "when did we see you and not tend to your needs", suggesting they are also surprised by the fact they end up not getting a place in heaven.

These two passages suggest people who truly believed they were saved suddenly finding, when it's too late to change things, that they were not actually saved. Presumably these people enjoyed what they thought was an assurance of salvation yet found out, too late, that they were wrong.

In the light of these verses, how would you consider the concept of an assurance of salvation?

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I believe those verses indicate the same thing that is indicated in James that faith without works is dead. True faith brings about works. So, no works is an indication of a lack of faith

Gospel: "God will never let go of your hand!"


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law: "Don't let go of God's hand!"


John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


To the Christian troubled by their doubt and unworthiness - share Gospel. To the Christian who thinks he can do whatever he wants because God is required to forgive him - share Law.



- Josiah

tango said:

No works is an indication of a lack of faith but that doesn't mean that works are an indication of faith. In Matthew 7 it appears the people told "I never knew you" were doing at least some of the kind of works we might expect of someone with God's spirit living in them.

One might argue that the people in Matthew 25 were the people who should have been doing some works but for whatever reason decided not to. Perhaps they were doing the spiritual equivalent of what James wrote about when he talked of seating the rich and poor people, figuring that they would have helped Jesus if only they knew it was him but anyone lesser, well, they didn't want to be getting their hands too dirty. Perhaps they were too busy doing "church things" that they didn't do what the church should be doing. It's hard to say, since the text doesn't explain why they didn't do "unto the least of these". It does suggest that the goats were surprised to realise their fate.

Maybe they were the kind of nominal Christians who religiously attend church every week but, having given God his allotted hour they go home and live the other 167 hours that week as if God was nothing to do with them. Maybe they were the kind of people who thought all they had to do was "say the sinner's prayer" as a form of fire insurance, then get on with living their life much like they did before. Either way the text gives the impression of a group of people left wondering what they did wrong, slightly past the point of no return.

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of course, you can do works and do them for all the wrong reasons. The Pharisees did a lot of works. Jesus said they did everything that they did "to be noticed by men, for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments and they love the place of honor at the banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues." Matthew 23:5-6. We are told rather to beware "of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them, otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 6:1

The broader context that bears on the passage you have referred to (Matthew 7:23-) starts in Matthew chapter 5.
I think it's telling that when rebuking those who never knew Him Christ accuses them of being evil doers, not "faithless".

Over the course of my life I have met/associated with people who were not of the Christian faith, and yet practiced and taught some of the things that are found in Matt chapters 5-7.
If someone of a different faith practices monogamy, that anger without cause is wrong, forgiveness of others preceding your own, private prayer, works without boasting, seeking God first, giving alms without seeking acknowledgement and any number of things that they learned in life either from parents, a different religion, or whatever the source...

...Why should a Christian assume these things are impossible if that person does not believe as they? Even more importantly, will they make judgements with this bias in mind? Ie: "Oh well he's not a Christian like me, so OBVIOUSLY that's the reason he did X or didn't do Y", or conversely "Oh he IS a Christian like me, but he did X...so now I will apply the standard of grace instead of moral judgement, and if he didn't do Y yet, maybe it's just because he's not 'mature' " .

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As for assurance of salvation if anyone is worried about it, they can just forget about Matthew 7 and focus on Saul/Paul's Romans 10:9.

Jesus: Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will be saved...
Saul/Paul: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Seems clear to me there is a choice to be made on what saying to believe.

Lämmchen said:

When I look up Matthew 7 I see that 21-23 has a title of Judgment of Pretenders. The verses prior to that are about false prophets and those who bear bad fruit. Combined with the rest of the chapter it is clear that those who have faith bear fruit because they can't NOT bear fruit. It's the ones who want to work for their salvation and don't have saving faith that will not see heaven. If we rely on ourselves instead of Jesus and try to work our way into heaven...it won't happen. Faith trusts in Jesus' who accomplished all that was needed for salvation and works follow not to earn anything but because we aren't even aware at times how the Spirit is working within us to do them.

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Just responding to what I made bold and underlined in your quote.

I suppose it's possible there are 2 groups of people being talked about(False prophets AND those who bear bad fruit), but the wording of the passage leads me to believe it's just one: False prophets. Known by their fruit.

"Fruit" can mean teaching. Like such as from a tree that is forbidden.

tango said:

But presumably the false prophets know they are false prophets, or are you thinking of people who are truly so misguided they think they are doing God's work when in fact they are doing nothing of the sort?

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Yes its not only false prophets, who are also mislead, but the ppl following em. I see ppl on Facebook, go to the street to heal the sick, Jesus this, Jesus that and they follow Todd Bentley and ppl like that. They dont go to church cause pastors are bad, so noone protects em against wolves.

IMO,

If the focus is on God, the Promise, the Savior - we have assurance.
If the focus is on self, the decisions/actions/feelings of self - we have fear (or Pharisee pride)


The "problem" I see in too much of modern Christianity is that the obsession seems to be on self: Do you believe ENOUGH? Do you try hard ENOUGH? Are you living well ENOUGH? Do you repent hard ENOUGH? Are you jumping through the endless chain of hoops the preacher keeps presenting well ENOUGH? Have you surrendered the steering wheel of your life? The focus is on self.... and either we are honest and say "no" and thus uncertainty and fear results ("I HOPE I'm headed for heaven.... I HOPE God forgives me.... I HOPE God is merciful to me") or we get a tiny obnoxious Pharisee ("I'M headed for heaven - but I really wonder about you.... I'M loved by God - but you, I'm not so sure"). Problem: A denial of the Gospel, a focus on self, looking in the mirror rather than to the Cross. Our rest, our certainty, our assurance comes from Christ, not self.

You have to judge yourself so you won't be judged.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

tango said:

Perhaps, but in Matthew 7 it is clear that the people were thinking they had prophesied, cast out demons, and done many wonders, in the name of Jesus. That suggests they had faith or they wouldn't be attempting to do such things.

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I am not convinced that it does. Same with the Matthew 7 verse. One way that it might not would be if they thought of themselves as followers of Jesus as an expert in life-style choices...or the greatest teacher of ethics ever...or even as an angel sent by God to Earth to lead people in making right decisions in life.

Any of those kinds of erroneous perceptions could account for their allegiance but it would not mark them as having the Faith that saves. What's more, that is a message (or warning) that seems to be reiterated elsewhere in the New Testament.

psalms 91 said:

Yup, work out your salvation with nfear and trembling I believe

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.... and if that's understood synergistically, we will LIVE in absolute terror and uncertainty because the real point is self (and we know self too well)...

But the verb there means to make evident what exists, to cause what IS inside to come to the surface where it is seen and made evident; it has to do with sanctification and not justification. Can we worry that our lives as CHRISTIANS, as JUSTIFIED, as HEAVEN-BOUND are not what they should and can be? Yes. Should we worry that THEREFORE we may well be hellbound because ultimately justification is the result of ME - my decisions/thoughts/works? No.

Josiah said:

.... and if that's understood synergistically, we will LIVE in absolute terror and uncertainty because the real point is self (and we know self too well)...

But the verb there means to make evident what exists, to cause what IS inside to come to the surface where it is seen and made evident; it has to do with sanctification and not justification. Can we worry that our lives as CHRISTIANS, as JUSTIFIED, as HEAVEN-BOUND are not what they should and can be? Yes. Should we worry that THEREFORE we may well be hellbound because ultimately justification is the result of ME - my decisions/thoughts/works? No.

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Depends. If I'm lukewarm I'm in danger. When I backslid I was glad someone warned me w hell, who normally doesn't do that. It's always assurance, except when you backslide. If I worry I can just ask God to test my heart.