"Post-NT" doctrine literature

Andrew · Jan 25, 2018

tango said:
In general I believe Muslims do acknowledge Jesus as being sent by God, but do not believe that Jesus is God, nor that he is the son of God. Many Muslims will refer to him as Prophet Jesus (or Isa) and frequently give him the honor suffix PBUH (peace be upon him). They believe Jesus was a prophet, the greatest prophet until Mohammed showed up.

Agree, it's true and it's scary but as for the Jesus sent from God it's actually the false jesus sent by the father of all lies, I'll take what imalive suggested to heart though. They need correction on who Jesus is, the devil is sneaky and one of his tricks is for us to become as 'itchy and scratchy' but on a global level and argue around in circles, right might as well be moby dick. Its why I wish to pursue more grounded rebuttals when seeking to convert a muslim on mormon or jw for that matter.
Moving this thread is a good idea, seeing we have a course of debate with an individual im not sure where its headed if anywhere at all

popsthebuilder · Jan 25, 2018

ImaginaryDay2 said:
Where are we told this? And what does "CHRIST" mean to a Muslim? From what I understand, the idea of god (allah) having a "son" is inconceivable.

1 John 4: 1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I can't speak for any Muslim, but Christ means one anointed with the Spirit of GOD.

the Quran is against preaching GOD the Son or even sonship, due to the potential for man to take it as they themselves are fully GOD. this is also why the Quran is against trinitarianism also; because if one is considered the Son of GOD as a man, and that is conflated with the literal utter fullness of GOD almighty, then you have people actually believing that they are GOD almighty.

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popsthebuilder · Jan 25, 2018

Lämmchen said:
Are you making the claim that they trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior for the forgiveness of their sins? I've never heard that one before because if that was a true statement they would be Christians and they aren't. Thus, they damn themselves for their rejection of the Savior.

I'm making the claim that they understand Christ to be given the Word of GOD.

I'm making the claim that they consider Jesus the Christ to be the Messiah and to have had the Spirit of GOD which cannot die, though the temple can be destroyed.

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Andrew · Jan 25, 2018

popsthebuilder said:
1 John 4: 1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I can't speak for any Muslim, but Christ means one anointed with the Spirit of GOD.

the Quran is against preaching GOD the Son or even sonship, due to the potential for man to take it as they themselves are fully GOD. this is also why the Quran is against trinitarianism also; because if one is considered the Son of GOD as a man, and that is conflated with the literal utter fullness of GOD almighty, then you have people actually believing that they are GOD almighty.

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The only problem is that they have the wrong guy, not Jesus, so no, they reject Christ COMPLETELY and have a nightmare of a story from some other talking baby jesus with no birth in a manger and never died on the cross and is a mere prophet way below/inferior to Muhammad.

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popsthebuilder · Jan 25, 2018

DHoffmann said:
Ok well your still wrong but lets suppose you are right and my version of the Qur'an is wrong, thats a MIGHTY big difference and a severe one that I guess all MUSLIMS have gotten wrong too, congrats you are the only true Muslim on the planet, a ummm Christian Muslim...
The Quran "Jesus" is an antichrist character, it is not Jesus and the god they worship is a false god too. Jesus was not a muslim but thats what muslims believe, he is not the Son of God but a mere prophet, he did not die on the cross but god had an imposter die there instead... and you actually believe that they are saved because they worship... scratch that... praise Jesus as a prophet below Muhammad?

But yes the Qur'an baby Jesus spoke to mary as soon as she gave birth to him, the Quran says so and so do all muslims.

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You aren't being honest.

You said you never read the Quran, but are positing all sorts of asinine assumptions about it in order to shine a false negative light on it. How do you honestly do such knowing you haven't even studied it?

You have been spoon fed lies and too feed others the same deception.

I can only hope you do this from ignorance.

I'm pretty sure that app said around 500 thousand downloads too, so your other baseless assertion about me being the only one who knows the truth of the matter is wholly unfounded.

And here I was thinking you wanted to learn something.

peace

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Andrew · Jan 25, 2018

popsthebuilder said:
You aren't being honest.

You said you never read the Quran, but are positing all sorts of asinine assumptions about it in order to shine a false negative light on it. How do you honestly do such knowing you haven't even studied it?

You have been spoon fed lies and too feed others the same deception.

I can only hope you do this from ignorance.

I'm pretty sure that app said around 500 thousand downloads too, so your other baseless assertion about me being the only one who knows the truth of the matter is wholly unfounded.

And here I was thinking you wanted to learn something.

peace

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I know enough to know its not the word of God.

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popsthebuilder · Jan 25, 2018

DHoffmann said:
Exactly, they don't recognise Christ as their Lord and Savior nor do they believe he took part of the ultimate sacrifice and fulfillment of OT prophesy as the Messiah.
It means nothing to a Muslim and they could care less about any salvation outside of submission to Allah the pagan moon god. lol see I am really bad at muslim conversion I would probably just make them angrier, I did however buy a book "questions muslims ask" hope it helps me... started reading some online and it seems worthy of a purchase.

You have definitely never read the book you slander.

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popsthebuilder · Jan 25, 2018

DHoffmann said:
Start at 1:00
https://youtu.be/jKlciARaxAM

That's what you do.

Use a video to determine the correct translation of a book that could be inspired by GOD.

that is some keen detective work.

Should have expecting nothing more than a disingenuous stab I suppose.

Typical.

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popsthebuilder · Jan 25, 2018

DHoffmann said:
I know enough to know its not the word of God.

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Preconceived notions really don't really make for a discerning mind.

Sure can make you deceive yourself though

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popsthebuilder · Jan 25, 2018

DHoffmann said:
I know enough to know its not the word of God.

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Then you know very little in that particular regard.

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Andrew · Jan 25, 2018

popsthebuilder said:
That's what you do.

Use a video to determine the correct translation of a book that could be inspired by GOD.

that is some keen detective work.

Should have expecting nothing more than a disingenuous stab I suppose.

Typical.

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No I would rather scream at you lol
I've read and researched the Quran and watched debates a few times prior to me buying a physical book, islamic scholars actually believe Mohammed added the talking baby in because he thought it was canonical when it was actually an arabic apocrypha known as the 'arabic infancy gospel'.
You can defend the false christ gospel all you want, good luck with that, actually I hope you come to your senses and see it for what it is because I seriously see you as trolling me for your claims are cringe worthy. You seem very confused even to the point of a few verses in the koran you cant even agree with, like muslims do, they will actually listen to the sound of the voice making contradictions and get angry if you bring it up...

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popsthebuilder · Jan 25, 2018

DHoffmann said:
The only problem is that they have the wrong guy, not Jesus, so no, they reject Christ COMPLETELY and have a nightmare of a story from some other talking baby jesus with no birth in a manger and never died on the cross and is a mere prophet way below/inferior to Muhammad.

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Wrong on all counts

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popsthebuilder · Jan 25, 2018

DHoffmann said:
No I would rather scream at you lol
I've read and researched the Quran and watched debates a few times prior to me buying a physical book, islamic scholars actually believe Mohammed added the talking baby in because he thought it was canonical when it was actually an arabic apocrypha known as the 'arabic infancy gospel'.
You can defend the false christ gospel all you want, good luck with that, actually I hope you come to your senses and see it for what it is because I seriously see you as trolling me for your claims are cringe worthy. You seem very confused even to the point of a few verses in the koran you cant even agree with, like muslims do, they will actually listen to the sound of the voice making contradictions and get angry if you bring it up...

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Feel free to not speak to me.

As for the truth? I will not let it be turned to a lie.

You indeed could call me a Christian that strives to submit to GOD.

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Andrew · Jan 25, 2018

popsthebuilder said:
Wrong on all counts

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Islamic Jesus was never crucified and therefore was not resurrected

And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]: But Allah raised him [‘Eesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All Powerful, All Wise [al-Nisaa’ 4:157-158]
vs.
Biblical Jesus which (by his death and resurrection) saved his people from their sins

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11;25

And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

I Corinthians 15:14*

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ImaginaryDay2 · Jan 25, 2018

popsthebuilder said:
1 John 4: 1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

From what I understand, John was writing about Gnostic heresies that were already present in the church - some were already teaching that Christ was only a man, or lower than God - not equal with him. There were others that taught sinlessness was achievable in this life - something else that John taight against in the same letter. This tells us little about what is salvic or not.

popsthebuilder said:
I can't speak for any Muslim, but Christ means one anointed with the Spirit of GOD.

Which stops short of truth. Some bible translators go so far as to maintain this mis-truth in Muslim majority countries under the guise of cultural accuracy

popsthebuilder said:
(T)he Quran is against preaching GOD the Son or even sonship, due to the potential for man to take it as they themselves are fully GOD. this is also why the Quran is against trinitarianism also; because if one is considered the Son of GOD as a man, and that is conflated with the literal utter fullness of GOD almighty, then you have people actually believing that they are GOD almighty.

...Or that (to a Muslim) the idea of allah having a son - equal to him - is an offense and inconceivable.

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popsthebuilder · Jan 25, 2018

DHoffmann said:
Islamic Jesus was never crucified and therefore was not resurrected

And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]: But Allah raised him [‘Eesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All Powerful, All Wise [al-Nisaa’ 4:157-158]
vs.
Biblical Jesus which (by his death and resurrection) saved his people from their sins

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11;25

And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

I Corinthians 15:14*

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More assumption.

The Spirit within the Christ of GOD cannot and did not die by the physical crucifixion of Jesus.

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Andrew · Jan 25, 2018

popsthebuilder said:
More assumption.

The Spirit within the Christ of GOD cannot and did not die by the physical crucifixion of Jesus.

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But Jesus died physically and therefore had to be resurrected, you deny the resurrection if you believe the quran which says that he didnt die but was taken up in his body and spirit to allah... It skips over death and resurrection and into ascension, thats not Jesus, you seem to be taking Taqiya to heart

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popsthebuilder · Jan 26, 2018

DHoffmann said:
But Jesus died physically and therefore had to be resurrected, you deny the resurrection if you believe the quran which says that he didnt die but was taken up in his body and spirit to allah... It skips over death and resurrection and into ascension, thats not Jesus, you seem to be taking Taqiya to heart

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It doesn't skip the resurrection.

It says that many claim the Christ/ the Spirit died on the cross.

This is foolishness, as the Spirit is eternal.

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Lamb · Jan 26, 2018

popsthebuilder said:
I'm making the claim that they understand Christ to be given the Word of GOD.

I'm making the claim that they consider Jesus the Christ to be the Messiah and to have had the Spirit of GOD which cannot die, though the temple can be destroyed.

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Do they believe Jesus is God who died on the cross and their sins are forgiven?

popsthebuilder · Jan 26, 2018

Lämmchen said:
Do they believe Jesus is God who died on the cross and their sins are forgiven?

They believe their sins are forgiven and that Jesus had the word and spirit of God but that spirit did not die.

This discussion is on the Quran; not the people who read it.

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