I was looking at this article about Methodist beliefs that sinless perfection is possible today for people.
Salvation is the result of a process of conversion, away from sin and toward God. Methodists believe that all humans are born sinners, thus all require conversion to be saved. Conversion may be sudden and dramatic or gradual. It consists of responding positively to God's prevenient grace, and to accepting the offer of justifying grace (the forgiveness of sins). With justifying grace comes also God's sanctifying grace, the supernatural assistance we need to make possible a life of increasing success in turning away from temptation, not allowing ourselves to sin, and performing works of piety and mercy. Methodists have historically differed from Presbyterians in believing that you can approach sinless perfection, and in believing that if you do not make progress toward perfection, you can lose your salvation.
Read more at
http://www.patheos.com/library/methodist/beliefs/afterlife-and-salvation#22ZhbC9JbjiZeKmB.99
If your Methodist do you agree with this statement?
I'm not Methodist... but here's my response....
Methodists believe that all humans are born sinners, thus all require conversion to be saved.
Agreed. The unregenerate are "DEAD." Which is why Jesus stated that His purpose/mission is that we may have life. And it means that the DEAD cannot think, choose, say, decide or do anything whatsoever regarding salvation.... God is the GIVER of life (not the Offerer of Life).
Salvation is the result of a process of conversion, away from sin and toward God. Conversion may be sudden and dramatic or gradual. It consists of responding positively to God's prevenient grace, and to accepting the offer of justifying grace (the forgiveness of sins).
I strongly (and foundationally) disagree. This makes justification progressive and synergistic. This concept of Justification is the very thing Protestants protested in Catholicism. Justification is 100% God's act and it's always 100% done; one is justified or one is not (there's no inbetween), one is alive or one is dead (there's no inbetween).
Sanctification (our life as one now given life, our discipleship, our becoming more Christ-like) IS progressive and synergistic - but that's not "conversion" or "justification", it's living. On January 23, 1988 God GAVE me life (well, 9 months before that, I'd argue). I didn't choose it, decide for it, agree with it - I couldn't because I didn't yet exist as a person. God GAVE physical life to me for the simple reason that that's the ONLY POSSIBLE way it could happen. "The free gift of God." Council of Orange. Nicene Creed. BUT once converted, justified, regenerated, born again..... immediately are called to grow, we are called to be as perfect as God is perfect, as holy as God is holy, as loving as God is loving, to be like Christ. We grow toward that.
At least part of the problem I have with this is that it totally confuses, merges and mixes up the two (in exactly the same way as post-Trent Catholicism) and creates a situation whereas Jesus is not really the Savior and we're never really saved but that it's a Pelagian, synergistic progress whereby God OFFERS and EMPOWERS (perhaps) but we actually do it (slowly, inperfectly - suggesting Purgatory or Reincarnation so we can finish the job of converting ourselves).
It consists of responding positively to God's prevenient grace, and to accepting the offer of justifying grace (the forgiveness of sins).
As in modern Catholicism, this is justification by our works and as a matter of keeping the Law. It implies that we are justified by matter of the Law and by keeping the Law, it just changes the Great Commandment ("love") of Catholicism with "accepting the offer" of Methodistism, it makes Jesus the Possibility Maker rather than the Savior, and it makes the Holy Spirit the Offerer of life rather than the Giver of life; it makes justification not "the gift of God" as Scripture says but the reward for keeping the Law of "accepting."
With justifying grace comes also God's sanctifying grace, the supernatural assistance we need to make possible a life of increasing success in turning away from temptation, not allowing ourselves to sin, and performing works of piety and mercy.
A different matter; sanctification IS synergistic and progressive - but not "salvation" "justification" "conversion" "regeneration." I think the central point of Protestantism is that Jesus IS THE Savior (and not ourselves - in whole or in part) - Luther got excommunicated for saying that. But yes, once justified/converted/regenerated - born again as the free gift of God (always total, always complete) THEN we are called to grow in life, love and service.... now justified/converted/saved we are called to love as we have first been loved.... to give as we have been given..... to become like Christ. Again, I was born January 23, 1988 (my birthday was yesterday). I had NOTHING to do with that, God GAVE me life. But BECAUSE I was given that, BECAUSE I'm alive, I'm called to constantly grow, mature, love, serve..... When we blend them.... put these two things in a blender (with a LOT of water), punch "high" and let it go for hours - what we get is a muddy, confused, entangled, mixed-up, watered down mess that is Pelagian and ultimately denies the central, chief article of faith of Protestantism (and I believe Christianity): Jesus is the Savior. We get the same MESS as in Catholicism, "God helps those who help themselves..... God makes salvation possible but you gotta achieve it..... Jesus opens the gate to heaven but you have to get through it..... No one is ever really saved, you just get closer (and so need Purgatory).... salvation is a matter of you keeping the Law.....
Methodists have historically differed from Presbyterians in believing that you can approach sinless perfection
"Approach?" That's a slippery, meaningless term, lol. I mean my Buddhist coworker is extremely nice and outwardly seems better than the majority of Christians known to me...... is he thereby converted?
The Bible says, "No one is righteous, no, not even one." SAINT Paul states that he is "chief of sinners." The Bible says, "For all have sinned and fallen short." I agree with that.
True, in SANCTIFICATION, we are called to grow. But when there's even the remote implication that THAT is how WE achieve justification, then we've returned to Rome and the very thing Protestants protested; we've simply denounced Jesus as the Savior and made self the Savior (Jesus bumped to Possibility Maker, the Holy Spirit to Offering, God to just "helper"). Yes, I agree we can loose our salvation but that's because we can denounce our faith ("commit spiritual suicide" as Billy Graham put it) but it's lack of faith that means justification is not ours. Yes, a life of WILLFUL sin CAN lead to that, but it's not the sin that means justification is not ours (or none would be justified with "all have sinned"), it's because that constant, willful sin is capable of murdering our faith.
you can lose your salvation.
.... then we must have HAD it. How can you loose something you don't have? Or is the point that we'd "lose" the
percentage of it that we had achieved?
I'd agree we CAN kill our faith, and thus lose our salvation ("commit spiritual suicide) but that's because I believe when God gives it, we have it. We don't accomplish it slowly, gradually.... I believe it is the Gift of God, and accomplished by Christ (not imperfectly but completely). Thus it IS ours (fully). But I agree with Methodist (and not hyper-Calvinists) that while we can do NOTHING to accomplish our conversion/justification/regeneration, we can kill our faith and thus our spiritual life/justification/conversion. I can't give myself physical life.... I can terminate it.
That's how I see it.....
- Josiah
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