annihilationism

jsimms435 said:

My mother's pastor is now preaching a series about hell which he is clearly teaching annihilationism of the soul. He is saying that the punishment for the lost is that their soul is destroyed. They don't suffer eternally. This is at a methodist church. I have given her numerous verses that talk about an eternal punishment in hell. Along with some web site that teach that hell is eternal

http://www.tektonics.org/af/annix.php

what are your thoughts?

I told her she should contact the areas bishop and let them know he is teaching this.

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First, I would place this in speculative theology rather than Christian theology. Annihilationism is best known in Jehovah's Witness and Mormon beliefs. Like free-will, it is developed by misapplying a couple verses while ignoring the forest of verses that make it untenable.

I heard some online sermons that teach the "good news" about hell. It actually makes sense, the fire is everlasting but they only take "part" in it and are burnt up in a twinkle of eye. "Your god may burn souls for eternity but my God burns them up in an instant" is one line I can remember. That and "for God will wipe away the tears from their eyes" and basically 'perishing' in the everlasting lake of fire...

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I would almost say that I'm shocked, considering that this is a Methodist church, but unorthodox teachings are so common in the churches these days that there is very little left to actually shock anyone.

Suffice it to say that annihilationism is not only contrary to the doctrines of the Methodist church but it is also one of the few items that "cult watchers" and researchers list as sure-fire indicators of a denomination that is officially a cult.

Albion said:

I would almost say that I'm shocked, considering that this is a Methodist church, but unorthodox teachings are so common in the churches these days that there is very little left to actually shock anyone.

Suffice it to say that annihilationism is not only contrary to the doctrines of the Methodist church but it is also one of the few items that "cult watchers" and researchers list as sure-fire indicators of a denomination that is officially a cult.

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Is it suffrage in hell that's eternal or hell that's eternal where man perish?

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Man was created in the image and likeness of God, which includes an eternally-existing spirit. To deny that is considered to be cultic, because it is a denial of the nature of Man, just like denying the nature of God (for example, by denying the Trinity) is considered to be cultic. The other commonly-agreed upon indicator of a cult is the acceptance of writings as Scripture which are additions to the Bible books (the Book of Mormon, for instance).

jsimms435 said:

As far as I can tell, people who have taught this have been uncomfortable with the idea that God could punish anyone in hell for eternity and still be a loving God. This is the way they reconcile this in their minds. nevermind that there are dozens of scriptures that contradict this. Some people don't let the Bible get in the way of their interpretation. It sickens me that this has come up in a church that I spent about 10 years in as a child and teenager. The quality of preachers in the Methodist church must really be going downhill fast

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There aren't "dozens", you're exaggerating. I bet you'd have a hard time finding more than a few, and of course they are going to be interpreted through the lens of your belief in "all souls are immortal"

Christ contrasts finding the gate that leads to life to the wide gate that leads to destruction. If one believes in the sort of living death Christians have been preaching for years, then it follows that God completely destroys people through some agonizing process involving fire, then when there is only ash, makes them whole again to start the process anew. Naturally one questions the definition of God's "mercy" and His instruction to us to be merciful in light of such ideas if they are taken to heart.

Albion said:

Man was created in the image and likeness of God, which includes an eternally-existing spirit. To deny that is considered to be cultic, because it is a denial of the nature of Man, just like denying the nature of God (for example, by denying the Trinity) is considered to be cultic. The other commonly-agreed upon indicator of a cult is the acceptance of writings as Scripture which are additions to the Bible books (the Book of Mormon, for instance).

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After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

It's also worth mentioning that if the spirit of man is externally existing, and Christ is the perfect man, then He never really died. Instead, His body died but the "soul" (as described in the above passages) somehow didn't. Where was it during 3 days and 3 nights?

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Careful with your words, because they just called Christ a liar. A cult leader, in fact.

Stravinsk said:

After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

It's also worth mentioning that if the spirit of man is externally existing, and Christ is the perfect man, then He never really died. Instead, His body died but the "soul" (as described in the above passages) somehow didn't. Where was it during 3 days and 3 nights?

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Careful with your words, because they just called Christ a liar. A cult leader, in fact.

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He was in gehenna whatever. Thats in Psalms. You did not leave My soul in gehenna. His Spirit He gave to the Father. His human soul He gave up, the soul of the flesh is in the blood and the blood speaks and is alive and cleanses.
Yes I have thought for a while that annihilation is true. There are verses also though lol like as w everything, that say the opposite. The beast and the devil will be tortured forever. Their worm doesnt die. Death is seperated from God. Jesus got seperated from God, His soul, even from His own Spirit I think. A spirit can't die.
I also read about aioons. But the pharisees would never be forgiven.
I think its safest to just get revival and everyone into heaven.
The dead know nothing: they dont know what is going on here on earth. Samuel came up from the ground. I believe gehenna is in the earth. Jesus went to the heart of the earth.
Jesus said to the Saducees that they are alive, the saints. He was w Moses and Elijah. The graves opened and they appeared to all.
What is destroyed? I hope cease to exist but I can't get that from Revelations.

Fire will come down from God out of heaven and destroy them. 10 Then the devil who fooled them will be thrown into the lake of fire burning with sulphur. The wild animal and the false preacher are already there. They will all be punished day and night forever.

Imalive said:

He was in gehenna whatever. Thats in Psalms. You did not leave My soul in gehenna. His Spirit He gave to the Father. His human soul He gave up, the soul of the flesh is in the blood and the blood speaks and is alive and cleanses.
Yes I have thought for a while that annihilation is true. There are verses also though lol like as w everything, that say the opposite. The beast and the devil will be tortured forever. Their worm doesnt die. Death is seperated from God. Jesus got seperated from God, His soul, even from His own Spirit I think. A spirit can't die.
I also read about aioons. But the pharisees would never be forgiven.
I think its safest to just get revival and everyone into heaven.

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:cheer: :cheer2: :yourock:

Albion said:

Man was created in the image and likeness of God, which includes an eternally-existing spirit. To deny that is considered to be cultic, because it is a denial of the nature of Man, just like denying the nature of God (for example, by denying the Trinity) is considered to be cultic. The other commonly-agreed upon indicator of a cult is the acceptance of writings as Scripture which are additions to the Bible books (the Book of Mormon, for instance).

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...and one papal ring to rule them all... [emoji57][emoji41]

DHoffmann said:

Is it suffrage in hell that's eternal or hell that's eternal where man perish?

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This passage in Mark has been used by some to intimate eternal suffering.
Mark 9:47-48
[47]And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It’s better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
[48]‘where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.’

Thief on the cross
Today
Paradise
:stars:

Snerfle said:

Thief on the cross
Today
Paradise
:stars:

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Luke, not one of the Twelve, twisting the crucifixion story.

John chapter 19: No mention of repentant thief.
Matthew chapter 27 vrs 44: No repentant thief rebuking the other. Both mocked Christ.

Thought it was complementary? One of the thieves had a change of heart after being crucified a while then rebuked the other, leading to the famous "Today you will be with me in paradise" ?

John disagrees:


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Stravinsk said:

Luke, not one of the Twelve, twisting the crucifixion story.

John chapter 19: No mention of repentant thief.
Matthew chapter 27 vrs 44: No repentant thief rebuking the other. Both mocked Christ.

Thought it was complementary? One of the thieves had a change of heart after being crucified a while then rebuked the other, leading to the famous "Today you will be with me in paradise" ?

John disagrees:


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

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Oops, I forgot you were an unbeliever. Sorry, My bad.

The invitation's still open, though.
Jesus loves you...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It's true.

Snerfle said:

Oops, I forgot you were an unbeliever. Sorry, My bad.

The invitation's still open, though.
Jesus loves you...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It's true.

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An unbeliever in 2 Gentiles (Mark, Luke) who were not part of the 12 Christ hand picked, you are correct in that.

Also an unbeliever in your murdering "apostle", Saul (Sheol)/Paul of TRSU.

Stravinsk said:

After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

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Were we here all members of a Jewish congregation, that argument would be appropriate--and it would be accepted at face value. However, we are Christians and have the enormous weight of the Gospels and the whole of the New Testament to guide our beliefs. Were you to quote or paraphrase every NT verse that teaches the life of the soul after physical death, the conclusion would be quite different. And unavoidable.

Albion said:

Were we here all members of a Jewish congregation, that argument would be appropriate--and it would be accepted at face value. However, we are Christians and have the enormous weight of the Gospels and the whole of the New Testament to guide our beliefs. Were you to quote or paraphrase every NT verse that teaches the life of the soul after physical death, the conclusion would be quite different. And unavoidable.

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Ah, an appeal to the "we". Exactly what are you saying, Albion? Are you going to call Christ a liar again by dismissing what He affirmed as Scripture just because it's in what you call the "old testament"?

Christ said it's life or destruction. Not a "living death" for all eternity. Don't believe Him? Not surprised.