Double Predestination

Imalive

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I will move you to anger by a foolish nation. God doesnt give up on His first wife. He takes another to get her jealous and get her back. He chose the foolish.

Well here's the answer to who God chooses:

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”[a]

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Glory Only in the Lord
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.
 

Imalive

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A testimony of how the dad of my brother in law got saved:
Guy had been reformed, then didnt really believe anymore. Dont know if he was an atheist. He wasnt saved. They wanted nothing to do w God or church.
He was dying of cancer. I was in a nuthouse. LOL I wanted to go to him to tell him the gospel, but my dad said: sweetheart you are in a crazy house. These people think you are crazy. They do not want you to come over.
So I sent him a card. Hey sup yo dont forget to arrange your heaven ticket. Here's how you do it.
My sister who isnt even saved yet was w him when he died and he said to her just before he died: hey what your sister said... She said: yes do that.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Is there any way to avoid the fact that any time a person dies in their sin, God has not worked a miracle?

Are we made God that we can answer?
 

MennoSota

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He chose to use people. He works through His body. He gave authority to the disciples.
He said to Jeremiah if he didnt warn a sinner He would require his blood from his hands.

How could God have saved us if noone would have been willing to give birth to Jesus?
Mordechai says it best...
"relief will arise from some other place..."

Esther 4:13-14
[13]Mordecai sent this reply to Esther: “Don’t think for a moment that because you’re in the palace you will escape when all other Jews are killed.
[14]If you keep quiet at a time like this, deliverance and relief for the Jews will arise from some other place, but you and your relatives will die. Who knows if perhaps you were made queen for just such a time as this?”

God calls his adopted children to a task. If we fail to obey, it does not stop God from accomplishing His will. It stops us from receiving God's blessing in the task.
 

MennoSota

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This is a good one. Calvinism assumes that God doesn't need anyone. He needed Jeremiah or chose to need him, He could have made kids out of stones too, so He made him and foreknew and predestined him to do that.
Abraham, Jacob, the disciples, without them I would never have been saved.

Where do you find God saying "I need you and cannot accomplish the task without you. I am dependant upon you and you alone."??? I ask you to share that verse.
Your thoughts on God's omnipotence are small and not taught in the Bible. You are making God in your image and thus worship an idol of your own making rather than the God of the Bible.
I will pray that God breaks through and shows you how big He is.
 

Imalive

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Mordechai says it best...
"relief will arise from some other place..."

Esther 4:13-14
[13]Mordecai sent this reply to Esther: “Don’t think for a moment that because you’re in the palace you will escape when all other Jews are killed.
[14]If you keep quiet at a time like this, deliverance and relief for the Jews will arise from some other place, but you and your relatives will die. Who knows if perhaps you were made queen for just such a time as this?”

God calls his adopted children to a task. If we fail to obey, it does not stop God from accomplishing His will. It stops us from receiving God's blessing in the task.

Yes, but He does need or chose to use someone.
If everyone isnt interested nothing much happens.
Is it then Gods will that there is no revival or are His ppl too uninterested? You can't expect from the Koreans that they pray and fast for the whole world. I think they do btw. It cant be a coincident that if His ppl repent and unite and pray and fast their cities or countries get saved.
 

MennoSota

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MennoSota

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Yes, but He does need or chose to use someone.
If everyone isnt interested nothing much happens.
Is it then Gods will that there is no revival or are His ppl too uninterested? You can't expect from the Koreans that they pray and fast for the whole world. I think they do btw. It cant be a coincident that if His ppl repent and unite and pray and fast their cities or countries get saved.
Certainly God chooses. God also gives the gift of faith and grace. But, God needs no one. To say God needs is to bring God down and make Him in our image. It's an idol of our own making, just as Aarons calf was an idol made to imagine Jehovah God.
 

MennoSota

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A testimony of how the dad of my brother in law got saved:
Guy had been reformed, then didnt really believe anymore. Dont know if he was an atheist. He wasnt saved. They wanted nothing to do w God or church.
He was dying of cancer. I was in a nuthouse. LOL I wanted to go to him to tell him the gospel, but my dad said: sweetheart you are in a crazy house. These people think you are crazy. They do not want you to come over.
So I sent him a card. Hey sup yo dont forget to arrange your heaven ticket. Here's how you do it.
My sister who isnt even saved yet was w him when he died and he said to her just before he died: hey what your sister said... She said: yes do that.
It is possible that God changed this man's heart at the last moment like the thief on the cross. It is also possible that this man placed his hope in an incantation that he repeated, which left him dead in his sin and hell bound. God knows what happened and we are left to trust God, not an incantation.
 

Imalive

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It is possible that God changed this man's heart at the last moment like the thief on the cross. It is also possible that this man placed his hope in an incantation that he repeated, which left him dead in his sin and hell bound. God knows what happened and we are left to trust God, not an incantation.

Hello. I didnt pray 20 years for that guy for nothing.
Me and my house. Household salvation. Demand from Me and I give ppl to your inheritance. My family does not have free will.
Night before my granddad an antitheist ex rosecrucian died, God said to me: you've got the keys. Use them. Tomorrow will be too late.
Then at the cremation my mom said: well I hope he made it. HELLOHO. I prayed my longues out for 20 years for that man. Of course he's saved. I saw him later in a dream, saved. Lee Thomas has a good book on it, how to pray for the lost.

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/onecanh...his-sins-he-doesnt-make-excuses-for-them/amp/

My theology is based on the experience of Ian McCormack who got saved just before he died cause his mom prayed and he came back to tell her.
 

MennoSota

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Hello. I didnt pray 20 years for that guy for nothing.
Me and my house. Household salvation. Demand from Me and I give ppl to your inheritance. My family does not have free will.
Night before my granddad an antitheist ex rosecrucian died, God said to me: you've got the keys. Use them. Tomorrow will be too late.
Then at the cremation my mom said: well I hope he made it. HELLOHO. I prayed my longues out for 20 years for that man. Of course he's saved. I saw him later in a dream, saved. Lee Thomas has a good book on it, how to pray for the lost.

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/onecanh...his-sins-he-doesnt-make-excuses-for-them/amp/

My theology is based on the experience of Ian McCormack who got saved just before he died cause his mom prayed and he came back to tell her.

Your theology is not biblical theology. Ian McCormack is a cult leader.
God may have been gracious and I hope he was. What you preach is not the gospel of grace, but salvation by works. Paul addressed this heresy when he wrote to the believers in Galatia.
 

Josiah

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You had me watch that in another thread, but I watched it again.


So, how does Dr. Biermann contradict the words of Scripture?

How does SINGLE Predestination, as he promotes, contradict the words of Scripture as has been charged?

What Scriptures would you, as a Reformed Christian (but not hyper or uber Calvinist, but rather a MODERN Reformed), condemn him because of the words of Scripture?

How does the words of Scripture make Dr. Biermann heretical but clearly DOUBLE Predestination to be correct?

Again, I'd love to see the Scriptures that flatly state Dr. Biermann and single predestination are wrong (or heretical as another charged), the exact contradiction to the words in the Scriptures, how he obviously "hates" the words of Scripture and turns them 180 degrees so that they mean the opposite of what is stated; how does he clearly HATE Scripture and CHANGE the meaning of the words 180 degrees as you indicated those who affirm Single Predestination do?




"Every time a person comes to faith, God has worked a miracle." - Dr. Biermann Is there any way to avoid the fact that any time a person dies in their sin, God has not worked a miracle?


Yes, SINGLE Predestination agrees with HALF of DOUBLE Predestination. We agree on 50% of our teachings here. But that doesn't mean that ERGO (to use Calvinists favorite word, lol) that we agree on the other half.


Well... I'd like to see the verse that states that. But that's not Double Predestination, which you agreed means that God CHOOSES (according to His will, His heart's desire) to justify a few AND EQUALLY to have most fry eternally in hell, and therefore (that "ergo' again) God does NOT will that all be saved (as God said) but rather that God wills that MOST fry eternally in hell; that God does NOT love the whole world but only a small part of it; that Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world (as He said) BUT rather only for a small percentage of the sins and for a small minority of the world, etc., etc., etc., etc. (you know, Calvinism).

IF the Reformed Confessions simply said, "God doesn't save all." I doubt there would be much controversy. And of course then there would be no limited atonement, etc. - indeed, no TULIP, no Calvinism.... you'd be agreeing with the Lutherans (and indeed all Christians before John and Jakob came along, lol).



- Josiah
 

Josiah

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What does Lutheran actually believe, Josiah?


What God states. That supports SINGLE Predestination but not DOUBLE..... as every Christian for over 1500 years has confessed, as the Creed states, as the Council of Orange affirmed, as Scripture teaches, until 2 men came along in the 16th Century (John and Jakob) with their "logical constructions" that contradict so many Scriptures. Lutherans admit there is mystery here (as with the Trinity, the Two Natures of Christ, etc., etc., etc.) but Lutherans believe in the sovereignty of God and therefore bow before Him even when we don't understand, Lutherans have the humility to accept that God likely knows more than we do and likely is smarter than we are and that God is NOT subject (under) the "sense" and "logic" and "answers of self to questions of self" of some man.

I shared a video where Dr. Beirmann (a teacher at Concordia Seminary in St. Louis) as he explains Single Predestination. I know it's 32 minutes long and that's beyond the normal attention span at sites like this, so I certainly understand that most (if not all) will skip it, BUT IF (big word there) IF you actually want to know what Lutherans believe here, you have a pretty good explanation there.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAqrIOchEN8





.
 

MennoSota

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What God states. That supports SINGLE Predestination but not DOUBLE..... as every Christian for 2000 years has confessed until 2 men came along in the 16th Century (John and Jakob) with their "logical constructions" that contradict so many Scriptures. Lutherans admit there is mystery here (as with the Trinity, the Two Natures of Christ, etc., etc., etc.) but Lutherans believe in the sovereignty of God and therefore bow before Him even when we don't understand, Lutherans have the humility to accept that God likely knows more than we do and likely is smarter than we are and that God is NOT subject (under) the "sense" and "logic" and "answers of self to questions of self" of some man.

I shared a video where Dr. Beirmann (a teacher at Concordia Seminary in St. Louis) as he explains Single Predestination. I know it's 32 minutes long and that's beyond the normal attention span at sites like this, so I certainly understand that most (if not all) will skip it, BUT IF (big word there) IF you actually want to know what Lutherans believe here, you have a pretty good explanation there.
What does Josiah believe? Show us scripture (what God states) and explain it to prove your position.
Please stop deflecting away from your personal responsibility to express your faith. Being a Lutheran won't save you, just as being a Catholic, a Presbyterian or a Baptist won't save you. God is non-denominational. Share your personal belief. Your belief is a mystery to us.
 

Josiah

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What does Josiah believe?

I already have. In SEVERAL threads, whenever you divert something to be a platform for your DOUBLE Predestination conjecture. And I shared that I agree with the Lutheran position (and gave you an easy video that explains it well). I have shared the Scriptures with you SEVERAL times (although you always want me to ignore the words and inject a lot of theories into them).


Atpollard summerized things this way quite some time ago (I think you ignored it):
atpollard said:
Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

CALVINISM:
Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

ARMINIANISM:
Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

LUTHERAN:
God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.


.


See post 52 above.
 

atpollard

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That would be my guess, all right. ;)

"Never trust a man who only knows one way to spell a word." :ewink:

OK, my bad. That's what I get for posting from a computer without a spellchecker.
 

Josiah

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.


atpollard said:
Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

CALVINISM:
Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

ARMINIANISM:
Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

LUTHERAN:
God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
(The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").


.


IMO,


Both of the 16th century "logical conjectures" of John Calvin and Jakob Arminius deny the soverneignty of God since roughly half of what God stated (such as "God desires all to be saved" and "I chose you") is simply ignored or twisted 180 degrees to "mean" the exact opposite of what God stated, the brain and "logic" and "sense" and theories and mental conjectures of a man are what is sovereign - and God is subject to it. Both come out of an incredible, enormous sense of ego and a belief that their brain, their intelligence, their conjectures are simply smarter than God and should correct what God has stated and supply what God (unwisely) left out. Both (in a way sadly common in modern Western Christianity) reject the idea of mystery for what doesn't "jibe" with THEIR brain, logic, sense, answers just cannot be true - and they are charged with correcting and completing God (God being subject to them).


Both of the 16th century "logical conjectures" of John Calvin and Jakob Arminius are equally logical. They both equally "answer" the question that God didn't, and do so equally with an easy, clean, simple, 'logical' answer. Problem is.... neither has a thing to support their conjecture (just their conjecture) and equally run head-on with a LOT of Scriptures that they must either ignore or twist 180 degrees to mean the opposite of what God actually stated.


Both of the 16th Century "logical conjectures" of John Calvin and Jakob Arminius INSIST that there are only two POSSIBILITIES here, two options (neither had anyone thought of for 1500+ years however). And so BOTH spend their time and energy SUCCESSFULLY proving the other false and unbiblical, then shouting "Because the other is wrong, ergo, I must be right!!!!" Both stress the "logic" while being dependent on this very illogical assumption. They reject that they could BOTH be wrong (at least in part), and of course, based on pride, deny even the theoretical POSSIBILITY that we may not know the answer, both entirely reject the concept of mystery and that God may know more than I do.


Both of the 16th Century "logical" conjectures of John Calvin and Jakob Arminius not only equally go BEYOND Scripture (which I might find tolerable) but equally CONTRADICT Scripture (as the other so well proves). IF Arminius simply said, "the unsaved have only themselves and their sin to blame" well, okay.... but he didn't, he went on to essentially make self the Savior of self! IF Calvin simply said, "the saved have only God to thank" well, okay.... but he didn't, he went on to blame God for the damned, to deny that God desires all to be saved, that Christ died for all, that God loved the world, etc. Their pride and the supremacy they place on their own brain leads each head-on contradicting Scripture, both with their obsession with "ergo."



- Josiah
 

atpollard

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Are we made God that we can answer?

Does that question need God to answer?
It it possible that God can have worked a miracle and saved someone, yet the saved end up in damned? They slipped from his hand? (Isaiah 43:13; John 10:28-29) Jesus failed in his promise to raise them on the last day? (John 6:44)

Lutherans refuse to admit the inescapable conclusions of their own statements and beliefs.
 

MennoSota

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I already have. In SEVERAL threads, whenever you divert something to be a platform for your DOUBLE Predestination conjecture. And I shared that I agree with the Lutheran position (and gave you an easy video that explains it well). I have shared the Scriptures with you SEVERAL times (although you always want me to ignore the words and inject a lot of theories into them).


Atpollard summerized things this way quite some time ago (I think you ignored it):



See post 52 above.
Josiah, you are deflecting just like MC does.
Please articulate your own belief regarding predestination. Use scripture to present your position. I have been very clear and used scripture to prove my position. You should do the same.
Perhaps you are unable to do so. If this is the case, just acknowledge that you cannot articulate your position.
 

atpollard

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So, how does Dr. Biermann contradict the words of Scripture?

How does SINGLE Predestination, as he promotes, contradict the words of Scripture as has been charged?

What Scriptures would you, as a Reformed Christian (but not hyper or uber Calvinist, but rather a MODERN Reformed), condemn him because of the words of Scripture?

How does the words of Scripture make Dr. Biermann heretical but clearly DOUBLE Predestination to be correct?

Again, I'd love to see the Scriptures that flatly state Dr. Biermann and single predestination are wrong (or heretical as another charged), the exact contradiction to the words in the Scriptures, how he obviously "hates" the words of Scripture and turns them 180 degrees so that they mean the opposite of what is stated; how does he clearly HATE Scripture and CHANGE the meaning of the words 180 degrees as you indicated those who affirm Single Predestination do?







Yes, SINGLE Predestination agrees with HALF of DOUBLE Predestination. We agree on 50% of our teachings here. But that doesn't mean that ERGO (to use Calvinists favorite word, lol) that we agree on the other half.


Well... I'd like to see the verse that states that. But that's not Double Predestination, which you agreed means that God CHOOSES (according to His will, His heart's desire) to justify a few AND EQUALLY to have most fry eternally in hell, and therefore (that "ergo' again) God does NOT will that all be saved (as God said) but rather that God wills that MOST fry eternally in hell; that God does NOT love the whole world but only a small part of it; that Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world (as He said) BUT rather only for a small percentage of the sins and for a small minority of the world, etc., etc., etc., etc. (you know, Calvinism).

IF the Reformed Confessions simply said, "God doesn't save all." I doubt there would be much controversy. And of course then there would be no limited atonement, etc. - indeed, no TULIP, no Calvinism.... you'd be agreeing with the Lutherans (and indeed all Christians before John and Jakob came along, lol).



- Josiah

You avoided really answering my question.

However, to answer your challenge ... it is an argument of semantics. What you and Biermann call "Single Predestination", Reformed Theology calls "Positive-negative Double Predestination". Both terms mean that God is responsible for 100% of the people who get saved and the damned are 100% responsible for their damnation. God takes no active role in preventing people from coming to salvation. What you and Biermann call "Double Predestination", Reformed Theology calls "Positive-positive Double Predestination". Both terms mean that God is 100% responsible for both the people who get saved and those who are damned because God crushes free will and takes an equal active role in drawing some towards himself and hardening the hearts of others to reject him.

You and Biermann both incorrectly claim that Calvinism (Reformed Theology) teach your "Double Predestination"/ our "Positive-positive Double Predestination". This is false. Lutherans reject the discipline of logic and refuse to speculate on why the reprobate (those who end up in Hell) are not saved, which is OK with me ... that's your right. However it prevents you from properly understanding the definition of "Single Predestination". "Single" means that only some are predestined to be 100% saved by God and the rest are granted Arminian Free will. Dr. Biermann specifically denied the possibility that a dead man could contribute even a tiny bit to his salvation, so those not saved by God cannot be saved by any other means. That makes the Arminian option for the non-predestined in Single Predestination something that Lutherans should reject.

You simply choose to embrace the term "Single Predestination" and redefine it, which you can do because you are not bound by the rules of logic, and accept half of the definition of Double Predestination while appending an "We don't know" to replace the inescapable conclusion that those whom God does not save are unsaved. (The question you avoided.)

So we actually believe almost the same thing, we just use terms that have different definitions:
LUTHERAN: "Single Predestination": God 100% saves some, the rest ... we don't know.
REFORMED: "Positive-negative Double Predestination": God 100% saves some and those God does not save, have no other chance to get saved.

... and NEITHER of us believe:
LUTHERAN "Double Predestination"/REFORMED "Positive-positive Double Predestination": God crushes free will and takes an equal active role in drawing some towards himself and hardening the hearts of others to reject him.

So again, given Biermann's statements in the video, can people be saved without the 'miracle' from God?
Did the damned receive the miracle of Salvation?
What does Scripture and the Creeds and 1500 years of Councils say?
 
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