Philippians 2:12 ?

Imalive

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My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29.

This verse is for lamm and all the sheep who say ame e e e e e en.
 

Josiah

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IMO...


The "issue" is we Protestants tend to equate the word "salvation" with our concept of narrow justification. Actually, "salvation" (and "justification") is at times used in Scripture in a broader sense.

Paul here is writing to CHRISTIANS, to people ALREADY justified. So it's not EARNING our justification that's the issue (they already have it). Paul is talking about sanctification (narrow), what we do AS CHRISTIANS, because we are justified - now called to perfect love, holiness and ministry. We are to "work out" our faith, our new life, our new reality - so that it's not just something inside but something that is evident and constant on the outside, in our lives, in our thinking and speaking and doing.

And I think we need to remember here Paul is speaking Law. Law must never be confused with or displace the Gospel.


This deals with the "fear and trembling" part....

“To work out our salvation” means nothing else than what Paul says elsewhere. We should live our lives in a way that is worthy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ suffered immeasurably because our sins are so heinous. Should we then go and sin much? Of course not.

We must do this, always remembering that our salvation in Christ is full and complete. The Blood shed on our behalf is such a wonderful treasure that nothing could increase its value by adding to it. Good works cannot make us more saved. The Cross is a finished and completed reality. It is an objective truth that applies to all men, since for all Christ died. He did not die for the righteous, as if you must make yourself more worthy in order to be saved. No, for enemies He died, and it is enemies whom He justifies by grace, through faith.

How can we see and receive that divine reality of the Cross and redemption, and then turn around and sin without restraint? No, we must act in a way fitting to the salvation that has been given to us.

For you personally, salvation should be a reality that impacts every area of your life. Not only when you sit in these pews, but every day and in every situation, you are a redeemed child of God. Work out how salvation impacts every area of your life. Do not let there be a compart- mentalization, where religion inhabits certain parts of your life, but not others. What you are in Christ transforms everything you are and do.

But we do not always succeed in this area. The power of temptation insidiously manipulates the sinful flesh still within us. That traitorous old Adam in us creates all kinds of weakness and stumbling.

This is why Paul does not say, “Work out your salvation with joy and triumph.” No, it is with fear and trembling. We constantly see that we cannot always uphold the standards that should mark us as Christians. We constantly find ways to act inappropriately to our calling in Holy Baptism. The more accurately we see our true situation, the more we realize how patient God is with us. If He acted with us as we deserve, He would surely cast us away and remove His Spirit and forgiveness from us.

He is patient for the sake of His Son. He is patient, because of His immense love. Only do not tempt that love. Do not take advantage of the patience of God, for He will not always contend with willful disobedience.

So we are rightly fearful towards God. This is not a cringing, cowering fear. Instead, we act respectfully and reverently to the Lord who has been full of grace to us. We fervently exercise ourselves in good works, because we should not blaspheme our Redeemer’s wonderful work on our behalf. To treat the salvation He purchased as nothing is the worst kind of rebellious arrogance. May it never be found among us.

The best way to both display the fear of God and to work out our salvation is to repent. Recognize failures in your words and actions. Recognize that they are most serious offenses in God’s sight. Fall down before Him with trembling of conscience. Say, “O Lord, You have done so much to save me. Yet I have failed most miserably. Have mercy upon me, an unworthy sinner.”

That is fear and trembling that clings to the salvation of God for you.

When your efforts do not seem to find success, remember the next verse of this text. “It is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” His steadfast love purchased your salvation. Again, His steadfast love works in you by driving you to good works and renewal of spirit. Of yourself, you could not remain in this faith. Your efforts at good works would only fail, and you would turn to despair, willful obedience, or deluded self-righteousness. But the Lord does not abandon His own. He fills you with His Holy Spirit, who works in you what He desires. The Spirit urges you to do right. He strengthens your faith through hearing the Word.

When you are tempted to despair because you fail, remember that the Spirit is with you. Remember that Christ has purchased you at infinite price. He will not abandon you.

If you think that your works are too insignificant, remember that God is pleased with them. They are works that He has produced in you, and therefore holy and good in His eyes.

For you are His glorious saints, overflowing with living waters by His Spirit. You are His beloved children, the apple of His eye in Christ Jesus. Comfort yourself with this knowledge, not as a license to sin, but to lift you up from the despair of this cold, dark world. For He has a better world waiting for you, the eternal home of righteousness.

The Spirit keep us in faith until all is fulfilled there.



- Josiah



.
 
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user1234

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My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29.

This verse is for lamm and all the sheep who say ame e e e e e en.

Ame e e e e e en !

If that passage isn't osas eternal security ......
:cheer: :hearts: :cheer2:
 

meluckycharms

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Thanks everyone, I think I got some really good answers. I think the verse is worded so strongly that I start getting tunnel vision :icon10:

Also Orthodoxy has a strong draw on me but with my personality I should probably stick with evangelical churches.

Hey, I think orthodoxy is fine. My take is that as long as you believe the Gospel, there is no reason to question your salvation. Last I heard, the orthodox church believes the Gospel too. So whether orthodox or evangelical, you will have a chance to ask God when you get there. Who knows, He may thump you on the head and tell you they both were wrong but it doesn't matter because you are with Him.

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meluckycharms

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Ame e e e e e en !

If that passage isn't osas eternal security ......
:cheer: [emoji813]s: :cheer2:
Baaa ram ewe!

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MennoSota

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So why do we need to work out our salvation when works do not save us?

Because though we are saved by God’s unconditional electing grace through the gift of faith, the works we do prove that our faith is real. Works are evidence of election.

That’s why on one hand Jesus says, “No one can come to me unless the Father. . . draws him” (election), and on the other hand he says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments (evidence of election). He ties both together when he says, “My sheep hear my voice (election) and I know them, and they follow me” (evidence).
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/why-must-we-work-out-our-salvation
 

Andrew

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Philippians 2:12...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

This scripture verse has always troubled me and can cause me concern and anxiety.

I’m particularly interested in the Lutheran perspective but the question is open to all who would like to contribute.

Please just answer the question itself without contending with the other posters. I’ll be able to discern for myself the most scripturally orthodox teaching with a possible follow up question or two.

God’s blessings:)
Aw man this would have been perfect for that 'ask the pastor' section, he's Lutheran.


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user1234

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So why do we need to work out our salvation when works do not save us?

Because though we are saved by God’s unconditional electing grace through the gift of faith, the works we do prove that our faith is real. Works are evidence of election.

That’s why on one hand Jesus says, “No one can come to me unless the Father. . . draws him” (election), and on the other hand he says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments (evidence of election). He ties both together when he says, “My sheep hear my voice (election) and I know them, and they follow me” (evidence).
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/why-must-we-work-out-our-salvation

I've been trying hard to avoid debates, I really am pulling and praying for more unity and brotherly love, amongst ... brothers and sisters in the faith, of course, lol ...
so I reluctantly post a response here, but I can't let this one pass...

Phil2:12 is not about 'works'. It's about how these young believers at Philippi were to continue in their ministering to each other and not be afraid to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord on their own ... that is, without the close oversight of Paul ....

This is a letter of encouragement to them, (and certain portions to us all) that it was time for them to grow up a little more and that they could 'work out' things on their own without Pauls need to micromanage them (and I mean that he cared for them intimately in a loving way, not 'micromanage' in the overlording, bad sense)

...As in, 'Yous know what to do, and you can do it...you have salvation, you KNOW every knee will bow to our Lord and Saviour Jesus, so work it out, live it out, work out that salvation you own as a gift, take it to the next level of sanctification'.

Thats basically the gist of that portion of the letter, vs12 to vs19.
After all, they were worried about their beloved mentor being in prison, and Paul himself didnt know if he was going to get out, or live, or die there.

But you see how much love he had for them, both in comfort and encouragement to carry on...'work it out'.
(And yet he still tried to reassure them by saying he was confident that he would survive it and even get to see them again , vs23.) What care and concern, brotherly love, he expressed!

MennoSota, I love ya, brother, and I agree with you alot, but I think in this case, what you're doing is turning the meaning of 'work out' to mean 'works' using vs12, but that idea just doesnt fit with the flow or point of the rest of the letter.

I know you dont believe in 'works-FOR' salvation, but your post indicates you're leaning towards a 'works-to keep' salvation.
You KNOW that just cant be ... We're saved by grace, and kept by grace.

You say that 'our works' PROVE that our FAITH is real. ... To who?
Our SALVATION is real bc our GOD and SAVIOUR is real.
Our FAITH being proven by our works is a different debate, but that's not the context of the letter or the passage or verse2:12 of Philippians. God bless you, bro.
 

MennoSota

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I've been trying hard to avoid debates, I really am pulling and praying for more unity and brotherly love, amongst ... brothers and sisters in the faith, of course, lol ...
so I reluctantly post a response here, but I can't let this one pass...

Phil2:12 is not about 'works'. It's about how these young believers at Philippi were to continue in their ministering to each other and not be afraid to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord on their own ... that is, without the close oversight of Paul ....

This is a letter of encouragement to them, (and certain portions to us all) that it was time for them to grow up a little more and that they could 'work out' things on their own without Pauls need to micromanage them (and I mean that he cared for them intimately in a loving way, not 'micromanage' in the overlording, bad sense)

...As in, 'Yous know what to do, and you can do it...you have salvation, you KNOW every knee will bow to our Lord and Saviour Jesus, so work it out, live it out, work out that salvation you own as a gift, take it to the next level of sanctification'.

Thats basically the gist of that portion of the letter, vs12 to vs19.
After all, they were worried about their beloved mentor being in prison, and Paul himself didnt know if he was going to get out, or live, or die there.

But you see how much love he had for them, both in comfort and encouragement to carry on...'work it out'.
(And yet he still tried to reassure them by saying he was confident that he would survive it and even get to see them again , vs23.) What care and concern, brotherly love, he expressed!

MennoSota, I love ya, brother, and I agree with you alot, but I think in this case, what you're doing is turning the meaning of 'work out' to mean 'works' using vs12, but that idea just doesnt fit with the flow or point of the rest of the letter.

I know you dont believe in 'works-FOR' salvation, but your post indicates you're leaning towards a 'works-to keep' salvation.
You KNOW that just cant be ... We're saved by grace, and kept by grace.

You say that 'our works' PROVE that our FAITH is real. ... To who?
Our SALVATION is real bc our GOD and SAVIOUR is real.
Our FAITH being proven by our works is a different debate, but that's not the context of the letter or the passage or verse2:12 of Philippians. God bless you, bro.
Nope, you misread what I posted. Go back and read it again. It's not works salvation at all.
 

meluckycharms

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I've been trying hard to avoid debates, I really am pulling and praying for more unity and brotherly love, amongst ... brothers and sisters in the faith, of course, lol ...
so I reluctantly post a response here, but I can't let this one pass...

Phil2:12 is not about 'works'. It's about how these young believers at Philippi were to continue in their ministering to each other and not be afraid to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord on their own ... that is, without the close oversight of Paul ....

This is a letter of encouragement to them, (and certain portions to us all) that it was time for them to grow up a little more and that they could 'work out' things on their own without Pauls need to micromanage them (and I mean that he cared for them intimately in a loving way, not 'micromanage' in the overlording, bad sense)

...As in, 'Yous know what to do, and you can do it...you have salvation, you KNOW every knee will bow to our Lord and Saviour Jesus, so work it out, live it out, work out that salvation you own as a gift, take it to the next level of sanctification'.

Thats basically the gist of that portion of the letter, vs12 to vs19.
After all, they were worried about their beloved mentor being in prison, and Paul himself didnt know if he was going to get out, or live, or die there.

But you see how much love he had for them, both in comfort and encouragement to carry on...'work it out'.
(And yet he still tried to reassure them by saying he was confident that he would survive it and even get to see them again , vs23.) What care and concern, brotherly love, he expressed!

MennoSota, I love ya, brother, and I agree with you alot, but I think in this case, what you're doing is turning the meaning of 'work out' to mean 'works' using vs12, but that idea just doesnt fit with the flow or point of the rest of the letter.

I know you dont believe in 'works-FOR' salvation, but your post indicates you're leaning towards a 'works-to keep' salvation.
You KNOW that just cant be ... We're saved by grace, and kept by grace.

You say that 'our works' PROVE that our FAITH is real. ... To who?
Our SALVATION is real bc our GOD and SAVIOUR is real.
Our FAITH being proven by our works is a different debate, but that's not the context of the letter or the passage or verse2:12 of Philippians. God bless you, bro.
I think what he is trying to say is that we don't do works to be saved. We do them because we already are saved. At least that's what I think he is saying. Like it says in James 2.

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
James 2:14*, ‬18*-‬20 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/jas.2.14-20.NIV

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user1234

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Nope, you misread what I posted. Go back and read it again. It's not works salvation at all.
I read it carefully and included it in my reply. I re-quoted it again below and I'll show where you turned the phrase 'work OUT your salvation' into 'works'.

I think what he is trying to say is that we don't do works to be saved. We do them because we already are saved. At least that's what I think he is saying. Like it says in James 2.

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
James 2:14*, ‬18*-‬20 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/jas.2.14-20.NIV

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That MIGHT be what he was TRYING to say, but that's not what he said. Either way, it's not the context of the letter. And jumping to a completely different letter, (James to the 12 Tribes vs. Paul to the believers at Philippi, is taking a text out of context to try to make a prooftext to support a pretext. :)

Philippians is not about works righteousness, nor is it about Paul telling them to PROVE they have faith or salvation.
He was quite confident of it, and commended them for it. He loved these friends and believers dearly, and this letter shows how personally caring for them he was, as well as the joy and love he's encouraging them (and us) with.

Btw, you gave a great reminder with this post, of why I try to avoid the NIV as much as possible.
Really bad copy. If someone came up to me bragging 'You have faith, I have deeds ... I will show you my faith by my deeds' , I think I might tell them to take their pharisaical pride and boasting and shov.....err, go away. Lol. But seriously, I think I'd tell them to read the 1st chapter of 1Corinthians, all 31 verses, in the KJV.

So why do we need to work out our salvation when works do not save us?

Because though we are saved by God’s unconditional electing grace through the gift of faith, the works we do prove that our faith is real. Works are evidence of election.

That’s why on one hand Jesus says, “No one can come to me unless the Father. . . draws him” (election), and on the other hand he says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments (evidence of election). He ties both together when he says, “My sheep hear my voice (election) and I know them, and they follow me” (evidence).
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/why-must-we-work-out-our-salvation
You ask, 'Why do we need to WORK OUT our salvation when WORKS do not save us?'

You confused Pauls encouragement to the Philippians to WORK OUT their situations in light of the salvation they already have, with WORKS.
They always were doing what they should have been while he was with them...Paul was encouraging them to continue to do so in his absence. He was encouraging them to mature, growth, work it out on their own.

You answer your own question with more emphasis on 'works' as a necessity to 'prove' we have faith. This is where you seem to imply that if we DONT have works, we either arent saved, or we dont KEEP saved.
Then you pick some verses from two different contexts in Johns gospel as prooftexts to your point, (which I also disagree with your interpretation of the Good Shepherd passage from John10, but thats a separate issue) but that still has nothing to do with Philippians2. And Philippians2 is not about works righteousness, or them having to prove they have faith.
 

MennoSota

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I read it carefully and included it in my reply. I re-quoted it again below and I'll show where you turned the phrase 'work OUT your salvation' into 'works'.

That MIGHT be what he was TRYING to say, but that's not what he said. Either way, it's not the context of the letter. And jumping to a completely different letter, (James to the 12 Tribes vs. Paul to the believers at Philippi, is taking a text out of context to try to make a prooftext to support a pretext. :)

Philippians is not about works righteousness, nor is it about Paul telling them to PROVE they have faith or salvation.
He was quite confident of it, and commended them for it. He loved these friends and believers dearly, and this letter shows how personally caring for them he was, as well as the joy and love he's encouraging them (and us) with.

Btw, you gave a great reminder with this post, of why I try to avoid the NIV as much as possible.
Really bad copy. If someone came up to me bragging 'You have faith, I have deeds ... I will show you my faith by my deeds' , I think I might tell them to take their pharisaical pride and boasting and shov.....err, go away. Lol. But seriously, I think I'd tell them to read the 1st chapter of 1Corinthians, all 31 verses, in the KJV.

You ask, 'Why do we need to WORK OUT our salvation when WORKS do not save us?'

You confused Pauls encouragement to the Philippians to WORK OUT their situations in light of the salvation they already have, with WORKS.
They always were doing what they should have been while he was with them...Paul was encouraging them to continue to do so in his absence. He was encouraging them to mature, growth, work it out on their own.

You answer your own question with more emphasis on 'works' as a necessity to 'prove' we have faith. This is where you seem to imply that if we DONT have works, we either arent saved, or we dont KEEP saved.
Then you pick some verses from two different contexts in Johns gospel as prooftexts to your point, (which I also disagree with your interpretation of the Good Shepherd passage from John10, but thats a separate issue) but that still has nothing to do with Philippians2. And Philippians2 is not about works righteousness, or them having to prove they have faith.
You miss the point entirely Snerfle. Take a nap and re-read it again.
 

meluckycharms

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Btw, you gave a great reminder with this post, of why I try to avoid the NIV as much as possible.
Really bad copy. If someone came up to me bragging 'You have faith, I have deeds ... I will show you my faith by my deeds' , I think I might tell them to take their pharisaical pride and boasting and shov.....err, go away. Lol. But seriously, I think I'd tell them to read the 1st chapter of 1Corinthians, all 31 verses, in the KJV.
Well, considering my hermeneutics professor is on the NIV new testament board and helped translate much of the NT NIV from the original Greek. I can ask him for you. [emoji6]


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Imalive

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Wow, I read your posts, and find you bouncing back and forth between being saved, once for all forever, and then NOT, and having fear of LOSING salvation. I'm not judging, honestly, I'm just trying to understand your position. Are you saved, osas and we can rejoice together in the great salvation of our God and Saviour Jesus? (I hope)

Or is there a fear that if we dont do this or that, or we DO do this or that, we lose our salvation? (Yes, DHoffman, I said doodoo, now knock it off, lol, :pound: )

And I still dont know what some other ppl believe ... If someone loses their salvation, is it lost forever? Or can they get saved again and still make it into heaven?

The whole idea of NOTosas is totally confusing me, (please stick with me Tigger, I WILL relate it to your OP) and yet, I think I used to not be osas, but I guess I just didnt understand it in context, and bc of so many works/obedience/law preachers, I just wasn't getting it.
It's hard to unravel the layers of religion and legalistic teaching.

For the OP, I recently addressed this passage in another thread ..... First, to understand and apply it, we MUST be born-again...saved...and that's a done deal.

We're saved and eternally secure in Christ.
Jesus did that for us, not of ANY works of ours. :cheer:

It's funny, but some folks like to warn about losing your salvation (not possible) but I think the better warning is to warn against false teaching and forming bad doctrines based on chopping verses out of scripture/context, or twisting their meanings.

I warn against it, but there are groups and whole denoms who insist on it, along with solo preachers like on tv, and their flocks.

And they seem to have favorite verses and passages they like to go to over and over , like Hebrews 6:4-6, or 10:26-29, etc., they pick and choose from a handful or two of favorite verses which add fear and doubt, in order to keep ppl in control and oppressed, and this verse from Philippians is one of them.

I feel bad for ppl who get trapped into that, I understand and pray for them to come out of it, but the false teachers really anger me, but anyway,
.......this verse 2:12, when isolated, can be troublesome, that's why it's important to have ASSURANCE of salvation first.

The letter is written to the believers at Phillipi by Paul from prison. It's filled with exhortations to joy for all believers as well. It's important to rightly divide the Word, and keep things in context.
Paul is also giving instructions for believers on how to be before God and for each other.

Chapter 2 encourages them, and us, to be likeminded in the faith, care for one another, putting each others needs ahead of their own, showing Jesus' example of how He humbled Himself for our benefit, laying down His life to pay for our sins.

Vss9-11 show Him to be God our Saviour, for all, and verses12-19 is an exhortation to the Phillipians to continue being christians practicing brotherly love, as they've done, and for Paul to be able to rejoice with them when he gets there.

Vs12 is NOT telling the unsaved to work FOR their salvation, nor is it telling worried believers to be fearful of losing their salvation.

It's an encouragement to take the salvation WHICH THEY ALREADY HAVE, and work it OUTWARDLY towards one another in humble service to each other and to minister the Word of God to each other and the world.

As meluckycharms and Lämmchen both pointed out so well...The fear and trembling is about respect (fear) and careful handling (trembling) of Gods gift of salvation for these young christians, to grow, even in Pauls absence.
GBU. :)

I believe eternal security, but not unconditional one sided osas. Osas if you abide in Him. If someone doubts their salvation for no reason there's eternal security verses, but if someone is living in sin, like that guy you told me, who cheated on his wife and now lives w the other, he doesnt need any osas preaching, oh dear sweetheart don't worry. That is the false teaching I am against and they call it osas. It is just not always true. There will be a falling away. It is true for the ones who listen and obey. That guy needs someone to warn him with hell and if he then listens, he doesnt get lost.
Because if all he hears is that God doesnt like it blablabla but no hell warning, why on earth would he quit and come back on the road? False grace preachers don't tell you the truth anymore. That's what I hate.
The warning with hell is to keep you saved. God has warned me with hell Personally when I was about to really get off the road in 2013. I remember I also later listened to John Kilpatrick, cause despite the warning I was so dumb to not completely get out of that situation and he said: Get out there now in the Name of Jesus! Thats the preaching you need if you're in danger of hell, not that it's impossible to get unborn. How am I to know at that moment that I am an elect who stays saved? You know if you listen. My sheep hear My voice.
It's like: does someone get saved if he commits suicide? Yes I know someone who got saved cause I had to pray for him and he wasnt a christian and shot himself. No way though I am gonna say that to a christian who says she wants to commit suicide. Then you say dont do it or you go to hell. Thats what God said to me when I tried to do it and why I didnt take the rest of the pills.
Do you know why I even did an attempt? I was too secure, too osas. Thats a false security. False grace leads to sin. I thought: I just take the pills, then say the sinners prayer, so He has to forgive me and it'll be too late. But I got so tired, I had to hurry up and had half of the poison left and after I prayed it He said that now if I took the rest the prayer meant nothing and I would be a hypocrit and I had to call for help.
 
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user1234

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I believe eternal security, but not unconditional one sided osas. Osas if you abide in Him. If someone doubts their salvation for no reason there's eternal security verses, but if someone is living in sin, like that guy you told me, who cheated on his wife and now lives w the other, he doesnt need any osas preaching, oh dear sweetheart don't worry. That is the false teaching I am against and they call it osas. It is just not always true. There will be a falling away. It is true for the ones who listen and obey. That guy needs someone to warn him with hell and if he then listens, he doesnt get lost.
Because if all he hears is that God doesnt like it blablabla but no hell warning, why on earth would he quit and come back on the road? False grace preachers don't tell you the truth anymore. That's what I hate.
The warning with hell is to keep you saved. God has warned me with hell Personally when I was about to really get off the road in 2013. I remember I also later listened to John Kilpatrick, cause despite the warning I was so dumb to not completely get out of that situation and he said: Get out there now in the Name of Jesus! Thats the preaching you need if you're in danger of hell, not that it's impossible to get unborn. How am I to know at that moment that I am an elect who stays saved? You know if you listen. My sheep hear My voice.
It's like: does someone get saved if he commits suicide? Yes I know someone who got saved cause I had to pray for him and he wasnt a christian and shot himself. No way though I am gonna say that to a christian who says she wants to commit suicide. Then you say dont do it or you go to hell. Thats what God said to me when I tried to do it and why I didnt take the rest of the pills.
Do you know why I even did an attempt? I was too secure, too osas. Thats a false security. False grace leads to sin. I thought: I just take the pills, then say the sinners prayer, so He has to forgive me and it'll be too late. But I got so tired, I had to hurry up and had half of the poison left and after I prayed it He said that now if I took the rest the prayer meant nothing and I would be a hypocrit and I had to call for help.
If you would have ever listened when I was telling you, instead of the lies the devil tells you to, bc as soon as you hear osas, you freak out and cant hear anything else, we could have avoided alot of the nonsense.

But here again is a perfect example of it ... I told you 3 times what my friend was going thru with his buddy.
I told you 3 times what he told him, how it was grieving him to no end that he had to back away from his friend bc be couldnt support what he was doing, and how he's been warned that he is leading himself and his family down a destructive path, that its not where God wants him, and it's not what Jesus died for him for,

....how IF he thinks that's how the Lord wants him treating his wife, his kids, the other girl, himself, or his Saviour, he might want to check to see if he's even saved!
That's what happened.

My friend asked ME one night about osas, bc he was misunderstanding it and the whole situation, and was in turmoil over his friend.

I explained osas to MY FRIEND, okay? I told you that.
I dont know his buddy (that Im aware of, maybe I do, but he didnt mention names, it's not about gossip, like so many 'christians' like to indulge in, but I dont think I know him anyway)

I didnt tell his buddy to go live in sin like the devil like who cares osas so no big deal,
and I tried to tell you that 3times, but you chose to IGNORE that and continue listening to the lies in your own head and using them against me to condemn me . Again.

Well, I'll have none of it...
I see that stuff all over the place on the net... the false accusations, the twisting of the meaning of eternal security, the bibles words (and my words as well), it's disgusting what ppl who hate grace wont stoop to...you should see some of it.

I have spent more time trying to correct things, oy, but you insist on finding every chance you can to take up sides against me, no matter what.

I cant count the number of times Ive had to say to you, 'No, dear, thats not true, heres the truth'...
'No, dear, that's not the truth, here's the truth'...
'No, dear, that's not the truth, here's the truth'...
Buy you'll just stick to your own story about me anyway.... It's a shame.

You have defended all kinds of things, even heresies, against me at times, why? idk, just to find ways to put me down, it seems? ... ignore? abandon? and the spirit of friendship and brotherly love you dont give to me at all. I really dont know why, I just know it hurts.

You've defended some pretty mean things against me, and I've never quite figured out why, but I have a good guess.

Whether it's the RC denom with all its lies and abominations, or false tv-type 'preachers' etc, it's just crazy.
But their anti-grace teaching leads to antagonism and then excommunication ... I see it so much these days, it's really a shame.

Meanwhile, I'd like to know who the self-righteous hypocrite is that came up with the terms falsegrace, cheapgrace, or easy-believism, ... and he now has works-salvation ppl saying it every chance they get. It's sad and horrible, really.
There's nothing false or cheap about the grace of God. First of all, salvation isnt cheap...it's FREE, and grace is not false or cheap, it's TRUE and it cost God EVERYTHING.

For ppl to throw that term around is just insulting, (idk why you started doing it, you never used to) but I think alot of other ppl do it to try to justify their own CHEAP WORKS, as if they can do anything to add to the finished work of Christ.

Unfortunately, they then convince others to believe the same nonsense, and before you know it, instead of having the joy of salvation and the loving of one another in their hearts, they're persecuting and condemning to hell their own brothers and sisters in the faith.

But maybe THEY'RE the ones that arent in the faith yet. They seem to be stuck in their own version of Romans10:3 ... And they not only refuse to move forward into verses 10:4-13, but seem intent on dragging others down into works-righteousness themselves.

Jesus is not a wishy-washy God.
Who He saves, He saves to the uttermost.
If a person teaches works for salvation, they teach a false gospel.
If they teach you can LOSE the salvation that God GAVE to someone as a gift of His grace, they teach a false gospel.
If someone teaches that there are WORKS you must do, laws you must obey, things you must stop or start or change, in order to get saved or have God keep you saved, they teach a false gospel.

It's the devil that wants to keep ppl doubting and fearing, and having to perform works to get or stay saved, rather than believing in Jesus.

That performance-based righteousnes is not only the sin of unbelief, but it leads to more sins ... Backbiting, strife, gossip, lies and slander, hatred, false accusations against the brethren, it just spirals down to separation and bitterness and anti-christian attitudes and behaviors.

Jesus' biggest problem wasn't so much with sinners sinning, it was with the self-righteous/works-righteous hypocrites that thought they could DO something to earn or keep the salvation which He purchased with His own blood.

I've tried so much to help you see that, and come out from that kind of teaching.
Of course it's great that you wanted to change your lifestyle, dont you think I support you on that? (and just about everything this past year?)

But if someone scared you out of it with threats of hell, hey, I'm glad if you're life improved as a result ...but Maybe the Holy Spirit was convicting you of sin and judgement and righteousness .... That's what He does to the world. But we get saved by hearing and believing the Gospel.

I dont know if thats when you got saved, but if you were already saved but backslidden, then God proved (and you confirmed) that you didnt lose your salvation and God doesnt lose His own. So that's great, right?

And now you are free to believe and preach the GOSPEL of the GRACE of God ... His grace, His mercy, His forgiveness, His longsuffering, His goodness, His love!

We have it all bc of Jesus! You and I ... we could have had alot together under the grace of God .... Maybe we still could, or maybe it's not His will, idk, but I really think it's time to get onboard and on the same page together.
If nothing else, then AT LEAST as brother and sister IN CHRIST.
We should be able to rejoice together.
Please, tho, just beware of false teachers who try to make us focus on sin and works and what good sheep we are, instead of focusing on what a Good Shepherd Jesus is.
Jesus loves you, Imalive ... And for what it's worth, if even as a brother and a friend, so do I.
 

Imalive

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If you would have ever listened when I was telling you, instead of the lies the devil tells you to, bc as soon as you hear osas, you freak out and cant hear anything else, we could have avoided alot of the nonsense.

But here again is a perfect example of it ... I told you 3 times what my friend was going thru with his buddy.
I told you 3 times what he told him, how it was grieving him to no end that he had to back away from his friend bc be couldnt support what he was doing, and how he's been warned that he is leading himself and his family down a destructive path, that its not where God wants him, and it's not what Jesus died for him for,

....how IF he thinks that's how the Lord wants him treating his wife, his kids, the other girl, himself, or his Saviour, he might want to check to see if he's even saved!
That's what happened.

My friend asked ME one night about osas, bc he was misunderstanding it and the whole situation, and was in turmoil over his friend.

I explained osas to MY FRIEND, okay? I told you that.
I dont know his buddy (that Im aware of, maybe I do, but he didnt mention names, it's not about gossip, like so many 'christians' like to indulge in, but I dont think I know him anyway)

I didnt tell his buddy to go live in sin like the devil like who cares osas so no big deal,
and I tried to tell you that 3times, but you chose to IGNORE that and continue listening to the lies in your own head and using them against me to condemn me . Again.

Well, I'll have none of it...
I see that stuff all over the place on the net... the false accusations, the twisting of the meaning of eternal security, the bibles words (and my words as well), it's disgusting what ppl who hate grace wont stoop to...you should see some of it.

I have spent more time trying to correct things, oy, but you insist on finding every chance you can to take up sides against me, no matter what.

I cant count the number of times Ive had to say to you, 'No, dear, thats not true, heres the truth'...
'No, dear, that's not the truth, here's the truth'...
'No, dear, that's not the truth, here's the truth'...
Buy you'll just stick to your own story about me anyway.... It's a shame.

You have defended all kinds of things, even heresies, against me at times, why? idk, just to find ways to put me down, it seems? ... ignore? abandon? and the spirit of friendship and brotherly love you dont give to me at all. I really dont know why, I just know it hurts.

You've defended some pretty mean things against me, and I've never quite figured out why, but I have a good guess.

Whether it's the RC denom with all its lies and abominations, or false tv-type 'preachers' etc, it's just crazy.
But their anti-grace teaching leads to antagonism and then excommunication ... I see it so much these days, it's really a shame.

Meanwhile, I'd like to know who the self-righteous hypocrite is that came up with the terms falsegrace, cheapgrace, or easy-believism, ... and he now has works-salvation ppl saying it every chance they get. It's sad and horrible, really.
There's nothing false or cheap about the grace of God. First of all, salvation isnt cheap...it's FREE, and grace is not false or cheap, it's TRUE and it cost God EVERYTHING.

For ppl to throw that term around is just insulting, (idk why you started doing it, you never used to) but I think alot of other ppl do it to try to justify their own CHEAP WORKS, as if they can do anything to add to the finished work of Christ.

Unfortunately, they then convince others to believe the same nonsense, and before you know it, instead of having the joy of salvation and the loving of one another in their hearts, they're persecuting and condemning to hell their own brothers and sisters in the faith.

But maybe THEY'RE the ones that arent in the faith yet. They seem to be stuck in their own version of Romans10:3 ... And they not only refuse to move forward into verses 10:4-13, but seem intent on dragging others down into works-righteousness themselves.

Jesus is not a wishy-washy God.
Who He saves, He saves to the uttermost.
If a person teaches works for salvation, they teach a false gospel.
If they teach you can LOSE the salvation that God GAVE to someone as a gift of His grace, they teach a false gospel.
If someone teaches that there are WORKS you must do, laws you must obey, things you must stop or start or change, in order to get saved or have God keep you saved, they teach a false gospel.

It's the devil that wants to keep ppl doubting and fearing, and having to perform works to get or stay saved, rather than believing in Jesus.

That performance-based righteousnes is not only the sin of unbelief, but it leads to more sins ... Backbiting, strife, gossip, lies and slander, hatred, false accusations against the brethren, it just spirals down to separation and bitterness and anti-christian attitudes and behaviors.

Jesus' biggest problem wasn't so much with sinners sinning, it was with the self-righteous/works-righteous hypocrites that thought they could DO something to earn or keep the salvation which He purchased with His own blood.

I've tried so much to help you see that, and come out from that kind of teaching.
Of course it's great that you wanted to change your lifestyle, dont you think I support you on that? (and just about everything this past year?)

But if someone scared you out of it with threats of hell, hey, I'm glad if you're life improved as a result ...but Maybe the Holy Spirit was convicting you of sin and judgement and righteousness .... That's what He does to the world. But we get saved by hearing and believing the Gospel.

I dont know if thats when you got saved, but if you were already saved but backslidden, then God proved (and you confirmed) that you didnt lose your salvation and God doesnt lose His own. So that's great, right?

And now you are free to believe and preach the GOSPEL of the GRACE of God ... His grace, His mercy, His forgiveness, His longsuffering, His goodness, His love!

We have it all bc of Jesus! You and I ... we could have had alot together under the grace of God .... Maybe we still could, or maybe it's not His will, idk, but I really think it's time to get onboard and on the same page together.
If nothing else, then AT LEAST as brother and sister IN CHRIST.
We should be able to rejoice together.
Please, tho, just beware of false teachers who try to make us focus on sin and works and what good sheep we are, instead of focusing on what a Good Shepherd Jesus is.
Jesus loves you, Imalive ... And for what it's worth, if even as a brother and a friend, so do I.

I cant read this. Lies in your own head.
I just stop reading and am too lazy to defend anything.
 

Andrew

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I suppose someone who is saved cannot be unsaved. We also cannot be redeemed twice (same difference).
One CAN backslide however, and OSAS doesn't really apply to Judas which causes me a headache sometimes because Jesus HAD to be betrayed by someone to fulfill prophesy... so what does that say for predestination?
In the case of your friend Snerfle, it's good to comfort your brother, we have Gods grace but its not exactly OSAS, I believe its even better tho. Just don't let OSAS replace grace, grace gives us a sense of conviction at least, OSAS can eliminate the sense of conviction IMO.

OSAS isn't true without grace, and grace isn't for mans free will but man seeking Gods will.
 

Imalive

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meluckycharms

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I suppose someone who is saved cannot be unsaved. We also cannot be redeemed twice (same difference).
One CAN backslide however, and OSAS doesn't really apply to Judas which causes me a headache sometimes because Jesus HAD to be betrayed by someone to fulfill prophesy... so what does that say for predestination?
In the case of your friend Snerfle, it's good to comfort your brother, we have Gods grace but its not exactly OSAS, I believe its even better tho. Just don't let OSAS replace grace, grace gives us a sense of conviction at least, OSAS can eliminate the sense of conviction IMO.

OSAS isn't true without grace, and grace isn't for mans free will but man seeking Gods will.

A Baptist pastor once referenced hebrews 6 and explained to me that people who back slide were never truly saved to begin with.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 6:4*-‬6 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.6.4-6.NIV

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Andrew

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A Baptist pastor once referenced hebrews 6 and explained to me that people who back slide were never truly saved to begin with.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 6:4*-‬6 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.6.4-6.NIV

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
So they are saved but if they fall back then they were never saved? Or is it saying that those who became enlightened and such and such... could not fall away? Or both?
It seems like those who fall away or then against Christ and then are they crucifying him being an enemy.

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