Philippians 2:12 ?

Tigger

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
1,555
Age
63
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Philippians 2:12...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

This scripture verse has always troubled me and can cause me concern and anxiety.

I’m particularly interested in the Lutheran perspective but the question is open to all who would like to contribute.

Please just answer the question itself without contending with the other posters. I’ll be able to discern for myself the most scripturally orthodox teaching with a possible follow up question or two.

God’s blessings:)
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
This is very similiar to what it says in Hebrews 2:1-3
"We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him."

I believe this is a warning to us not to take the grace of God for granted or take it lightly. It cost Jesus his life on earth. We aren't to take it for granted and are to do our part as believers to live in a manner worthy of our calling. That phrase "manner worthy of calling" occurs several times in scripture. We are to be doing our part to be a good witness, not to be a stumbling block to others and remember that Jesus didn't have to forgive us at all. Phil 1:27, Eph 4:1, 1 Thess 2:12
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Philippians 2:12...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

This scripture verse has always troubled me and can cause me concern and anxiety.

I’m particularly interested in the Lutheran perspective but the question is open to all who would like to contribute.

Please just answer the question itself without contending with the other posters. I’ll be able to discern for myself the most scripturally orthodox teaching with a possible follow up question or two.

God’s blessings:)

If it causes me concern, I first wonder if the devil is accusing me or if there's really something wrong and if there's cause for concern. Then I confess my sins 1 John 1:9 and He cleanses me w His blood and my conscience. For some things I needed prayer in church or demons kicked out.
God warns you to keep you safe.
Satan accuses and gives no way out. The Holy Spirit convinces and shows a way out. Get to know who you are in Christ. You are made holy and you can put to death the deeds of the body through His help. If not and you're in Romans 7 then cry out to God and you come in Romans 8.
One guy on cf was addicted to porn for 38 years. He was a pastor. He prayed and fasted and nothing worked and eventually he gave up and God said: with this My son I am well pleased. You cant do it yourself. Then he had to confess that he died and raised with Christ and he was set free instantly.
But even Smith Wigglesworth, when he was a young believer would get scared and think everyone was raptured except him. That was accusation from the devil.
They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of their mouth and they didnt love their life unto death.
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
My son had anxiety and demons telling him the whole day that one day he'd leave God and go to hell. Day in day out. Because the kid was 8 and his dad taught about hell in church. It went on for quite some time and dad rebuked that demon, but he kept saying they said this and that. Then he took him to a psychologist who wanted to put him on drugs and I got furious, but I had nothing to say and I had one week to fix this. So I said to my son: I dedicated you before conception and told God I would not have kids w out the assurance theyd always follow Him. So dont worry, once saved always saved. And I said: tell your dad you dont hear it anymore.
But then I lie.
No its the truth. God says it. He whom the Son sets free is free indeed and we prayed that you'd be set free. Period.
So he did that. Dad didnt believe him, but within a week it was gone. Psychologist said he was okay and didnt need meds.

Btw dont just read Phillippians 2, read it in context.
Phillippians 1:

I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ

He warns to keep you safe. Angel said to Paul that no prisoner on the ship would die, but when they tried to escape, he said: stay on the ship else you die.
That warning kept them safe.
 

meluckycharms

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2016
Messages
248
Age
38
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Philippians 2:12...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

This scripture verse has always troubled me and can cause me concern and anxiety.

I’m particularly interested in the Lutheran perspective but the question is open to all who would like to contribute.

Please just answer the question itself without contending with the other posters. I’ll be able to discern for myself the most scripturally orthodox teaching with a possible follow up question or two.

God’s blessings:)
First, I would note that I am not a follower of OSAS. For I apologize for the bias. First, when we say "the fear of the Lord" we mean "the reverence and awe of all that which is God that leads one to willful obedience to His will". Basically, it means to take your salvation seriously. Don't fall into the trap of complacency.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. "Trembling" can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy.*Psalm 2:11*sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
First, I would note that I am not a follower of OSAS. For I apologize for the bias. First, when we say "the fear of the Lord" we mean "the reverence and awe of all that which is God that leads one to willful obedience to His will". Basically, it means to take your salvation seriously. Don't fall into the trap of complacency.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. "Trembling" can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy.*Psalm 2:11*sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The fun thing is, he says in Phillippians 1 that they are once saved always saved. He sees their fruit and still he warns them.
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
First, I would note that I am not a follower of OSAS. For I apologize for the bias. First, when we say "the fear of the Lord" we mean "the reverence and awe of all that which is God that leads one to willful obedience to His will". Basically, it means to take your salvation seriously. Don't fall into the trap of complacency.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. "Trembling" can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy.*Psalm 2:11*sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The fun thing is, he says in Phillippians 1 that they are once saved always saved. He sees their fruit and still he warns them.
 

meluckycharms

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2016
Messages
248
Age
38
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
The fun thing is, he says in Phillippians 1 that they are once saved always saved. He sees their fruit and still he warns them.
I have difficulty finding that in Philippians 1. Could you tell me the verse? It may be because I am using the NIV.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
I have difficulty finding that in Philippians 1. Could you tell me the verse? It may be because I am using the NIV.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

It's in the NIV too.

I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ (NKJV)

I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (NIV)
 

meluckycharms

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2016
Messages
248
Age
38
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
It's in the NIV too.

I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ

I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Gotcha. I see what you are talking about. I can definitely see what you mean. I can also see how one could conclude OSAS. It's a valid position to have. My interpretation is that Paul is providing encouragement. Because of their behavior, Paul is confident that the Philippians will be saved. However, this confidence is not an indicator of a guarantee.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
I'm against osas too, but more how they preach it now, one sided without warning or fear of the Lord. Paul prayed for his disciples. He taught em to observe what Jesus said. If ppl would not listen and lived a lifestyle of sin and just called themselves a brother, they would be kicked out of church, but now if a church doesn't preach against sin or set ppl free, ppl just keep attending and don't do any effort to stop sinning and believe they're also once saved always saved.
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Gotcha. I see what you are talking about. I can definitely see what you mean. I can also see how one could conclude OSAS. It's a valid position to have. My interpretation is that Paul is providing encouragement. Because of their behavior, Paul is confident that the Philippians will be saved. However, this confidence is not an indicator of a guarantee.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I would agree with you that is more likely what he had in mind
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,566
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Philippians 2:12...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

This scripture verse has always troubled me and can cause me concern and anxiety.

I’m particularly interested in the Lutheran perspective but the question is open to all who would like to contribute.

Please just answer the question itself without contending with the other posters. I’ll be able to discern for myself the most scripturally orthodox teaching with a possible follow up question or two.

God’s blessings:)

Lutherans will always point you to Jesus the Savior for your salvation. So when looking at that verse where is the certainty of your salvation? Is it in something YOU do or is it in Jesus and the forgiveness of sins He won at the cross for you?

The verse says "work out" not "work for" and that is key to understanding it. Our salvation is in Jesus not in anything we can do to earn it so we work out what Jesus has done for us and we do so by faith. We live our lives by faith because Christ died to save even the worst sinners.

Helping us understand the verse is also the context of what comes before it and what comes after. Before the verse in point we see Christ's humility. Look at the following verse now, for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort—for the sake of his good pleasure—is God. You see that the desire and effort is God's doing.

An unbeliever doesn't "fear" or are in "awe" of God because he doesn't even believe in God. Paul writes in this letter telling believers to be lights of the world. We do that by serving our neighbor because our neighbor needs our love and help and because God wants us to love our neighbors.
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Dutch translation says of this I am fully convinced.

As always, context is everything. Paul had a very close relationship with those in Philippi. He was expressing his confidence in their salvation. People try to apply this to everyone when Paul was not writing to everyone.
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
As always, context is everything. Paul had a very close relationship with those in Philippi. He was expressing his confidence in their salvation. People try to apply this to everyone when Paul was not writing to everyone.

Yes he saw their fruit. That's why he said it.
 

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
If it causes me concern, I first wonder if the devil is accusing me or if there's really something wrong and if there's cause for concern. Then I confess my sins 1 John 1:9 and He cleanses me w His blood and my conscience. For some things I needed prayer in church or demons kicked out.
God warns you to keep you safe.
Satan accuses and gives no way out. The Holy Spirit convinces and shows a way out. Get to know who you are in Christ. You are made holy and you can put to death the deeds of the body through His help. If not and you're in Romans 7 then cry out to God and you come in Romans 8.
One guy on cf was addicted to porn for 38 years. He was a pastor. He prayed and fasted and nothing worked and eventually he gave up and God said: with this My son I am well pleased. You cant do it yourself. Then he had to confess that he died and raised with Christ and he was set free instantly.
But even Smith Wigglesworth, when he was a young believer would get scared and think everyone was raptured except him. That was accusation from the devil.
They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of their mouth and they didnt love their life unto death.

My son had anxiety and demons telling him the whole day that one day he'd leave God and go to hell. Day in day out. Because the kid was 8 and his dad taught about hell in church. It went on for quite some time and dad rebuked that demon, but he kept saying they said this and that. Then he took him to a psychologist who wanted to put him on drugs and I got furious, but I had nothing to say and I had one week to fix this. So I said to my son: I dedicated you before conception and told God I would not have kids w out the assurance theyd always follow Him. So dont worry, once saved always saved. And I said: tell your dad you dont hear it anymore.
But then I lie.
No its the truth. God says it. He whom the Son sets free is free indeed and we prayed that you'd be set free. Period.
So he did that. Dad didnt believe him, but within a week it was gone. Psychologist said he was okay and didnt need meds.

Btw dont just read Phillippians 2, read it in context.
Phillippians 1:

I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ

He warns to keep you safe. Angel said to Paul that no prisoner on the ship would die, but when they tried to escape, he said: stay on the ship else you die.
That warning kept them safe.

Wow, I read your posts, and find you bouncing back and forth between being saved, once for all forever, and then NOT, and having fear of LOSING salvation. I'm not judging, honestly, I'm just trying to understand your position. Are you saved, osas and we can rejoice together in the great salvation of our God and Saviour Jesus? (I hope)

Or is there a fear that if we dont do this or that, or we DO do this or that, we lose our salvation? (Yes, DHoffman, I said doodoo, now knock it off, lol, :pound: )

And I still dont know what some other ppl believe ... If someone loses their salvation, is it lost forever? Or can they get saved again and still make it into heaven?

The whole idea of NOTosas is totally confusing me, (please stick with me Tigger, I WILL relate it to your OP) and yet, I think I used to not be osas, but I guess I just didnt understand it in context, and bc of so many works/obedience/law preachers, I just wasn't getting it.
It's hard to unravel the layers of religion and legalistic teaching.

For the OP, I recently addressed this passage in another thread ..... First, to understand and apply it, we MUST be born-again...saved...and that's a done deal.

We're saved and eternally secure in Christ.
Jesus did that for us, not of ANY works of ours. :cheer:

It's funny, but some folks like to warn about losing your salvation (not possible) but I think the better warning is to warn against false teaching and forming bad doctrines based on chopping verses out of scripture/context, or twisting their meanings.

I warn against it, but there are groups and whole denoms who insist on it, along with solo preachers like on tv, and their flocks.

And they seem to have favorite verses and passages they like to go to over and over , like Hebrews 6:4-6, or 10:26-29, etc., they pick and choose from a handful or two of favorite verses which add fear and doubt, in order to keep ppl in control and oppressed, and this verse from Philippians is one of them.

I feel bad for ppl who get trapped into that, I understand and pray for them to come out of it, but the false teachers really anger me, but anyway,
.......this verse 2:12, when isolated, can be troublesome, that's why it's important to have ASSURANCE of salvation first.

The letter is written to the believers at Phillipi by Paul from prison. It's filled with exhortations to joy for all believers as well. It's important to rightly divide the Word, and keep things in context.
Paul is also giving instructions for believers on how to be before God and for each other.

Chapter 2 encourages them, and us, to be likeminded in the faith, care for one another, putting each others needs ahead of their own, showing Jesus' example of how He humbled Himself for our benefit, laying down His life to pay for our sins.

Vss9-11 show Him to be God our Saviour, for all, and verses12-19 is an exhortation to the Phillipians to continue being christians practicing brotherly love, as they've done, and for Paul to be able to rejoice with them when he gets there.

Vs12 is NOT telling the unsaved to work FOR their salvation, nor is it telling worried believers to be fearful of losing their salvation.

It's an encouragement to take the salvation WHICH THEY ALREADY HAVE, and work it OUTWARDLY towards one another in humble service to each other and to minister the Word of God to each other and the world.

As meluckycharms and Lämmchen both pointed out so well...The fear and trembling is about respect (fear) and careful handling (trembling) of Gods gift of salvation for these young christians, to grow, even in Pauls absence.
GBU. :)
 

Tigger

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
1,555
Age
63
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Thanks everyone, I think I got some really good answers. I think the verse is worded so strongly that I start getting tunnel vision :icon10:

Also Orthodoxy has a strong draw on me but with my personality I should probably stick with evangelical churches.
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29.
 
Top Bottom