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    Denomination & Faith Movement Discussions - Thread: Philippians 2:12 ?

    1. #21
      Imalive's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29.
      This verse is for lamm and all the sheep who say ame e e e e e en.

    2. #22
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      IMO...


      The "issue" is we Protestants tend to equate the word "salvation" with our concept of narrow justification. Actually, "salvation" (and "justification") is at times used in Scripture in a broader sense.

      Paul here is writing to CHRISTIANS, to people ALREADY justified. So it's not EARNING our justification that's the issue (they already have it). Paul is talking about sanctification (narrow), what we do AS CHRISTIANS, because we are justified - now called to perfect love, holiness and ministry. We are to "work out" our faith, our new life, our new reality - so that it's not just something inside but something that is evident and constant on the outside, in our lives, in our thinking and speaking and doing.

      And I think we need to remember here Paul is speaking Law. Law must never be confused with or displace the Gospel.


      This deals with the "fear and trembling" part....

      “To work out our salvation” means nothing else than what Paul says elsewhere. We should live our lives in a way that is worthy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ suffered immeasurably because our sins are so heinous. Should we then go and sin much? Of course not.

      We must do this, always remembering that our salvation in Christ is full and complete. The Blood shed on our behalf is such a wonderful treasure that nothing could increase its value by adding to it. Good works cannot make us more saved. The Cross is a finished and completed reality. It is an objective truth that applies to all men, since for all Christ died. He did not die for the righteous, as if you must make yourself more worthy in order to be saved. No, for enemies He died, and it is enemies whom He justifies by grace, through faith.

      How can we see and receive that divine reality of the Cross and redemption, and then turn around and sin without restraint? No, we must act in a way fitting to the salvation that has been given to us.

      For you personally, salvation should be a reality that impacts every area of your life. Not only when you sit in these pews, but every day and in every situation, you are a redeemed child of God. Work out how salvation impacts every area of your life. Do not let there be a compart- mentalization, where religion inhabits certain parts of your life, but not others. What you are in Christ transforms everything you are and do.

      But we do not always succeed in this area. The power of temptation insidiously manipulates the sinful flesh still within us. That traitorous old Adam in us creates all kinds of weakness and stumbling.

      This is why Paul does not say, “Work out your salvation with joy and triumph.” No, it is with fear and trembling. We constantly see that we cannot always uphold the standards that should mark us as Christians. We constantly find ways to act inappropriately to our calling in Holy Baptism. The more accurately we see our true situation, the more we realize how patient God is with us. If He acted with us as we deserve, He would surely cast us away and remove His Spirit and forgiveness from us.

      He is patient for the sake of His Son. He is patient, because of His immense love. Only do not tempt that love. Do not take advantage of the patience of God, for He will not always contend with willful disobedience.

      So we are rightly fearful towards God. This is not a cringing, cowering fear. Instead, we act respectfully and reverently to the Lord who has been full of grace to us. We fervently exercise ourselves in good works, because we should not blaspheme our Redeemer’s wonderful work on our behalf. To treat the salvation He purchased as nothing is the worst kind of rebellious arrogance. May it never be found among us.

      The best way to both display the fear of God and to work out our salvation is to repent. Recognize failures in your words and actions. Recognize that they are most serious offenses in God’s sight. Fall down before Him with trembling of conscience. Say, “O Lord, You have done so much to save me. Yet I have failed most miserably. Have mercy upon me, an unworthy sinner.”

      That is fear and trembling that clings to the salvation of God for you.

      When your efforts do not seem to find success, remember the next verse of this text. “It is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” His steadfast love purchased your salvation. Again, His steadfast love works in you by driving you to good works and renewal of spirit. Of yourself, you could not remain in this faith. Your efforts at good works would only fail, and you would turn to despair, willful obedience, or deluded self-righteousness. But the Lord does not abandon His own. He fills you with His Holy Spirit, who works in you what He desires. The Spirit urges you to do right. He strengthens your faith through hearing the Word.

      When you are tempted to despair because you fail, remember that the Spirit is with you. Remember that Christ has purchased you at infinite price. He will not abandon you.

      If you think that your works are too insignificant, remember that God is pleased with them. They are works that He has produced in you, and therefore holy and good in His eyes.

      For you are His glorious saints, overflowing with living waters by His Spirit. You are His beloved children, the apple of His eye in Christ Jesus. Comfort yourself with this knowledge, not as a license to sin, but to lift you up from the despair of this cold, dark world. For He has a better world waiting for you, the eternal home of righteousness.

      The Spirit keep us in faith until all is fulfilled there.


      - Josiah



      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 01-13-2018 at 06:58 PM.

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    4. #23
      Snerfle is offline Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29.
      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      This verse is for lamm and all the sheep who say ame e e e e e en.
      Ame e e e e e en !

      If that passage isn't osas eternal security ......
      os as

      ~Ignoring others...especially other
      believers, is anti-christian.~ 1John

    5. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
      Thanks everyone, I think I got some really good answers. I think the verse is worded so strongly that I start getting tunnel vision

      Also Orthodoxy has a strong draw on me but with my personality I should probably stick with evangelical churches.
      Hey, I think orthodoxy is fine. My take is that as long as you believe the Gospel, there is no reason to question your salvation. Last I heard, the orthodox church believes the Gospel too. So whether orthodox or evangelical, you will have a chance to ask God when you get there. Who knows, He may thump you on the head and tell you they both were wrong but it doesn't matter because you are with Him.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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    7. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      Ame e e e e e en !

      If that passage isn't osas eternal security ......
      s:
      Baaa ram ewe!

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

    8. #26
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      So why do we need to work out our salvation when works do not save us?

      Because though we are saved by God’s unconditional electing grace through the gift of faith, the works we do prove that our faith is real. Works are evidence of election.

      That’s why on one hand Jesus says, “No one can come to me unless the Father. . . draws him” (election), and on the other hand he says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments (evidence of election). He ties both together when he says, “My sheep hear my voice (election) and I know them, and they follow me” (evidence).
      https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...-our-salvation

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    10. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
      Philippians 2:12...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

      This scripture verse has always troubled me and can cause me concern and anxiety.

      I’m particularly interested in the Lutheran perspective but the question is open to all who would like to contribute.

      Please just answer the question itself without contending with the other posters. I’ll be able to discern for myself the most scripturally orthodox teaching with a possible follow up question or two.

      God’s blessings
      Aw man this would have been perfect for that 'ask the pastor' section, he's Lutheran.


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    12. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      So why do we need to work out our salvation when works do not save us?

      Because though we are saved by God’s unconditional electing grace through the gift of faith, the works we do prove that our faith is real. Works are evidence of election.

      That’s why on one hand Jesus says, “No one can come to me unless the Father. . . draws him” (election), and on the other hand he says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments (evidence of election). He ties both together when he says, “My sheep hear my voice (election) and I know them, and they follow me” (evidence).
      https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...-our-salvation
      I've been trying hard to avoid debates, I really am pulling and praying for more unity and brotherly love, amongst ... brothers and sisters in the faith, of course, lol ...
      so I reluctantly post a response here, but I can't let this one pass...

      Phil2:12 is not about 'works'. It's about how these young believers at Philippi were to continue in their ministering to each other and not be afraid to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord on their own ... that is, without the close oversight of Paul ....

      This is a letter of encouragement to them, (and certain portions to us all) that it was time for them to grow up a little more and that they could 'work out' things on their own without Pauls need to micromanage them (and I mean that he cared for them intimately in a loving way, not 'micromanage' in the overlording, bad sense)

      ...As in, 'Yous know what to do, and you can do it...you have salvation, you KNOW every knee will bow to our Lord and Saviour Jesus, so work it out, live it out, work out that salvation you own as a gift, take it to the next level of sanctification'.

      Thats basically the gist of that portion of the letter, vs12 to vs19.
      After all, they were worried about their beloved mentor being in prison, and Paul himself didnt know if he was going to get out, or live, or die there.

      But you see how much love he had for them, both in comfort and encouragement to carry on...'work it out'.
      (And yet he still tried to reassure them by saying he was confident that he would survive it and even get to see them again , vs23.) What care and concern, brotherly love, he expressed!

      MennoSota, I love ya, brother, and I agree with you alot, but I think in this case, what you're doing is turning the meaning of 'work out' to mean 'works' using vs12, but that idea just doesnt fit with the flow or point of the rest of the letter.

      I know you dont believe in 'works-FOR' salvation, but your post indicates you're leaning towards a 'works-to keep' salvation.
      You KNOW that just cant be ... We're saved by grace, and kept by grace.

      You say that 'our works' PROVE that our FAITH is real. ... To who?
      Our SALVATION is real bc our GOD and SAVIOUR is real.
      Our FAITH being proven by our works is a different debate, but that's not the context of the letter or the passage or verse2:12 of Philippians. God bless you, bro.
      os as

      ~Ignoring others...especially other
      believers, is anti-christian.~ 1John

    13. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      I've been trying hard to avoid debates, I really am pulling and praying for more unity and brotherly love, amongst ... brothers and sisters in the faith, of course, lol ...
      so I reluctantly post a response here, but I can't let this one pass...

      Phil2:12 is not about 'works'. It's about how these young believers at Philippi were to continue in their ministering to each other and not be afraid to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord on their own ... that is, without the close oversight of Paul ....

      This is a letter of encouragement to them, (and certain portions to us all) that it was time for them to grow up a little more and that they could 'work out' things on their own without Pauls need to micromanage them (and I mean that he cared for them intimately in a loving way, not 'micromanage' in the overlording, bad sense)

      ...As in, 'Yous know what to do, and you can do it...you have salvation, you KNOW every knee will bow to our Lord and Saviour Jesus, so work it out, live it out, work out that salvation you own as a gift, take it to the next level of sanctification'.

      Thats basically the gist of that portion of the letter, vs12 to vs19.
      After all, they were worried about their beloved mentor being in prison, and Paul himself didnt know if he was going to get out, or live, or die there.

      But you see how much love he had for them, both in comfort and encouragement to carry on...'work it out'.
      (And yet he still tried to reassure them by saying he was confident that he would survive it and even get to see them again , vs23.) What care and concern, brotherly love, he expressed!

      MennoSota, I love ya, brother, and I agree with you alot, but I think in this case, what you're doing is turning the meaning of 'work out' to mean 'works' using vs12, but that idea just doesnt fit with the flow or point of the rest of the letter.

      I know you dont believe in 'works-FOR' salvation, but your post indicates you're leaning towards a 'works-to keep' salvation.
      You KNOW that just cant be ... We're saved by grace, and kept by grace.

      You say that 'our works' PROVE that our FAITH is real. ... To who?
      Our SALVATION is real bc our GOD and SAVIOUR is real.
      Our FAITH being proven by our works is a different debate, but that's not the context of the letter or the passage or verse2:12 of Philippians. God bless you, bro.
      Nope, you misread what I posted. Go back and read it again. It's not works salvation at all.

    14. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      I've been trying hard to avoid debates, I really am pulling and praying for more unity and brotherly love, amongst ... brothers and sisters in the faith, of course, lol ...
      so I reluctantly post a response here, but I can't let this one pass...

      Phil2:12 is not about 'works'. It's about how these young believers at Philippi were to continue in their ministering to each other and not be afraid to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord on their own ... that is, without the close oversight of Paul ....

      This is a letter of encouragement to them, (and certain portions to us all) that it was time for them to grow up a little more and that they could 'work out' things on their own without Pauls need to micromanage them (and I mean that he cared for them intimately in a loving way, not 'micromanage' in the overlording, bad sense)

      ...As in, 'Yous know what to do, and you can do it...you have salvation, you KNOW every knee will bow to our Lord and Saviour Jesus, so work it out, live it out, work out that salvation you own as a gift, take it to the next level of sanctification'.

      Thats basically the gist of that portion of the letter, vs12 to vs19.
      After all, they were worried about their beloved mentor being in prison, and Paul himself didnt know if he was going to get out, or live, or die there.

      But you see how much love he had for them, both in comfort and encouragement to carry on...'work it out'.
      (And yet he still tried to reassure them by saying he was confident that he would survive it and even get to see them again , vs23.) What care and concern, brotherly love, he expressed!

      MennoSota, I love ya, brother, and I agree with you alot, but I think in this case, what you're doing is turning the meaning of 'work out' to mean 'works' using vs12, but that idea just doesnt fit with the flow or point of the rest of the letter.

      I know you dont believe in 'works-FOR' salvation, but your post indicates you're leaning towards a 'works-to keep' salvation.
      You KNOW that just cant be ... We're saved by grace, and kept by grace.

      You say that 'our works' PROVE that our FAITH is real. ... To who?
      Our SALVATION is real bc our GOD and SAVIOUR is real.
      Our FAITH being proven by our works is a different debate, but that's not the context of the letter or the passage or verse2:12 of Philippians. God bless you, bro.
      I think what he is trying to say is that we don't do works to be saved. We do them because we already are saved. At least that's what I think he is saying. Like it says in James 2.

      What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
      James 2:14*, ‬18*-‬20 NIV
      https://bible.com/bible/111/jas.2.14-20.NIV

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