Oprah 2020

ValleyGal

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Sometimes the so-called universal health care isn't as good as it seems from afar. It's nice to know that if you need major treatment you won't get a horrendous bill at the end of it. But it's also nice to know that if you need care you'll get it before you die of the condition, which isn't always the case under universal health care systems. An elderly couple I knew in the UK had to basically empty their savings account when he needed major heart surgery. He could get it free of charge on the NHS but the estimated waiting time was six months. Without the treatment it was far from certain he'd live six months, so they paid for him to have it done privately. The supposedly universal healthcare system failed them when they needed it the most, and it cost them tens of thousands.
That is very sad. I'm sure we get our fair share of deaths while patients wait for their surgeries, but for a large part, Canada (well, BC at least) provides care based on triage, so those more urgent needs are met more quickly. Of course as you are waiting for surgery, your own needs become more urgent so you have to be pretty sick to access care. And for those who have money, they can access care whenever they want, wherever they want. Our system isn't perfect, and the more the aging population needs healthcare, the less perfect it will be, since there are fewer citizens paying taxes to cover healthcare and other social programs.
 

Albion

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It seems as though the average person thinks that universal health care, or even Obamacare, is supposed to make health care affordable for everyone. What it actually is doing is insuring the poor at the expense of everyone else; and when the whole world is invited here to take advantage of that policy, not having contributed much if anything into the system, of course the cost will be high for everyone else. No, you will not be able to keep your own doctor or be treated by a surgeon or specialist whenever you need one.
 

Albion

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Spoken like a true Republican. Fact is that many who did not have insurance now do and by the way we are the only industrial nation that doesnt have some form of universal health care. 11 million people might disagree with you, the number that the CBO estimates would lose coverage if it is done away with
Shall we reply with a "Spoken like a true Socialist?? " Let's cut that sort of stuff out.
 

ValleyGal

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It seems as though the average person thinks that universal health care, or even Obamacare, is supposed to make health care affordable for everyone. What it actually is doing is insuring the poor at the expense of everyone else; and when the whole world is invited here to take advantage of that policy, not having contributed much if anything into the system, of course the cost will be high for everyone else. No, you will not be able to keep your own doctor or be treated by a surgeon or specialist whenever you need one.

This is true for the American system. When it was first talked about, I thought it was going to be similar to the Canadian system, using funds from federal and provincial taxes, and giving oversight to those in the medical profession - iow, doctors make the decisions as to what is medically required to diagnose and treat patients. But... that didn't happen. I learned that the full medical cost for the poor is actually paid for by those who are not, and that oversight is still in the hands of the insurance companies. That does not work, and is an unfair system.

I have socialist leanings. Jesus said to give to the poor, feed the hungry, don't neglect those who are imprisoned, he healed those who were sick, etc. Iow, take care of those who are marginalized in society. Since we live in such an individualistic and egocentric society, those who are marginalized were suffering and needed someone to step up and take care of them. The general public does not contribute enough to the church, so imo, the government had to step up to the job and use taxes to do it.

So I don't mind if Oprah wants to help out a few people who are in need, but I do question her motives. Everyone sees her as generous, but her giving is a mere token (likely for tax write off, so giving is now motivated by saving money), when it could be much more than that.
 

Albion

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This is true for the American system. When it was first talked about, I thought it was going to be similar to the Canadian system, using funds from federal and provincial taxes, and giving oversight to those in the medical profession - iow, doctors make the decisions as to what is medically required to diagnose and treat patients. But... that didn't happen. I learned that the full medical cost for the poor is actually paid for by those who are not, and that oversight is still in the hands of the insurance companies. That does not work, and is an unfair system.

I have socialist leanings.
Yes, well, that's the point here, isn't it? The USA resists going the way of Socialism...because it doesn't work in addition to being immoral. Canadians talk about their health system as though it is the ultimate, but it actually isn't working and is no more sustainable than the British model that is on the verge of collapse with the authorities saying, outright, that they simply will not take care of tens of thousands of people that they are supposed to be insuring.
 

ValleyGal

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Well, Canada's system has worked for us for what? Fifty years? It has sustained us for a long time, and efforts are being made to figure out how to continue sustaining it in the future. Yes, there will be changes. No, it does not work for everyone. But I will say this. It is preferable to the American system which doesn't work for anyone.

There has to be a balance in government, and it is like walking a tightrope. They have to be liberal enough to give everyone the same rights and freedoms (this includes recognizing and addressing multicultural issues as well as other forms of marginalization such as poverty), they must be conservative enough to meet the political needs of everything from people to infrastructure, and they must be socialist enough to support those who truly need support. They need to balance public demand with research. All of this is difficult to do, especially when dealing with capitalism, individualistic society, and political/religious radicals. I'd never want to be a politician, that's for sure, and I think the country would be crazy to vote in Oprah.

I'm proud to be a Canuck! Go Canucks! lol
 

Albion

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Well, Canada's system has worked for us for what? Fifty years?
That all depends on what we define as works, doesn't it? If the system worked as well as you want us to think, there would not be people having to go to other countries to get medical help that would be readily available in the USA. And this has been going on for most of the fifty years you speak of.

I'm proud to be a Canuck! Go Canucks! lol
I know. That's why you felt you had to speak well of the Canadian health care system.
 

Josiah

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This is true for the American system. When it was first talked about, I thought it was going to be similar to the Canadian system, using funds from federal and provincial taxes, and giving oversight to those in the medical profession - iow, doctors make the decisions as to what is medically required to diagnose and treat patients. But... that didn't happen. I learned that the full medical cost for the poor is actually paid for by those who are not, and that oversight is still in the hands of the insurance companies. That does not work, and is an unfair system.

I have socialist leanings. Jesus said to give to the poor, feed the hungry, don't neglect those who are imprisoned, he healed those who were sick, etc. Iow, take care of those who are marginalized in society. Since we live in such an individualistic and egocentric society, those who are marginalized were suffering and needed someone to step up and take care of them. The general public does not contribute enough to the church, so imo, the government had to step up to the job and use taxes to do it.

So I don't mind if Oprah wants to help out a few people who are in need, but I do question her motives. Everyone sees her as generous, but her giving is a mere token (likely for tax write off, so giving is now motivated by saving money), when it could be much more than that.


IMO, in the USA, the essential difference is this....


CONSERVATISM:

+ Encourage all to be successful, productive, achieving "The American Dream" Reward productivity and responsibility.

+ Those who NEED help should receive such..... but Bill Gates doesn't need government supplied health care or taxpayer subsidies for his fleet of Testas; health subsides for example should be only for those who genuinely NEED it, not socialize care that equally helps Bill Gates, Donald Trump, etc. Focus of help should be on those who need it, not on "universal rights" regardless of need.

+ "Teach a man to fish and you've fed him for life" The goal should be to give those in need a hand up, not a hand out. Government should liberate, not make people dependent on it.

+ People should largely govern their own lives (people are smart enough to do that); "government that governs least governs best," government is a necessary evil to be kept carefully in check. Government needs to stay out of people's way, as much as possible.



LIBERALISM:

+ Take from the responsible, the successful, the productive.... and give to those who aren't, as a way of punishing success and maintaining failure.

+ Deal with the poor and needy by giving them just enough handouts so they can stay poor and needy (and hopefully look to government as their daddy, on whom they depend)

+ Give them a fish each day.

+ People are dumb and incapable; left on their own they will do stupid things. People NEED the government, government needs to keep people in check. Government alone is smart and capable. Bigger government is always better government. Government must wage war against the greed and selfishness and stupidity of its citizens.


They are very different philosophies. And it's not easy to find common ground and policies.



- Josiah
 

Imalive

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Its unchristian and antisocial to let someone die cause they're too poor. Rich man and Lazarus.
Not that our system is so fantastic. Ppl can now get pills to kill themselves and you pay for someone elses abortion and ppl get pumped full of drugs and get antichristian psychological help for free.
 
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tango

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This is true for the American system. When it was first talked about, I thought it was going to be similar to the Canadian system, using funds from federal and provincial taxes, and giving oversight to those in the medical profession - iow, doctors make the decisions as to what is medically required to diagnose and treat patients. But... that didn't happen. I learned that the full medical cost for the poor is actually paid for by those who are not, and that oversight is still in the hands of the insurance companies. That does not work, and is an unfair system.

I have socialist leanings. Jesus said to give to the poor, feed the hungry, don't neglect those who are imprisoned, he healed those who were sick, etc. Iow, take care of those who are marginalized in society. Since we live in such an individualistic and egocentric society, those who are marginalized were suffering and needed someone to step up and take care of them. The general public does not contribute enough to the church, so imo, the government had to step up to the job and use taxes to do it.

So I don't mind if Oprah wants to help out a few people who are in need, but I do question her motives. Everyone sees her as generous, but her giving is a mere token (likely for tax write off, so giving is now motivated by saving money), when it could be much more than that.

I think the key thing is that the universal healthcare system as practised in the UK is badly broken as it is ripe for abuse and riddled with waste and inefficiency. The healthcare system in the U is badly broken and Obamacare fixed it for some while making it far worse for others.

What would seem to make sense, if it could be defined and enforced (which is a huge if), would be some kind of system that would treat life threatening illnesses courtesy of a centrally funded insurance scheme while providing much more choice for things that were essentially elective or low-level. If you want to see the doctor because you've got a headache, be ready to pay their bill. If the headache turns out to be brain cancer you don't have to worry about finding deductibles and copayments and all that other ugly stuff.

Where such a scheme is likely to break is down to the definition of what is treated centrally and what is not. Before long the chances are someone is going to want IVF, or gender realignment, or cosmetic surgery, claiming that their quality of life is ruined by not having whatever treatment they seek.

To be honest I think what the US system needs most of all is a sensible discussion of just what insurance actually means, and why it's so expensive to get such basic medical treatment. Insurance is clearly a part of the problem, as well as potentially a part of the solution.
 

tango

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Yes, well, that's the point here, isn't it? The USA resists going the way of Socialism...because it doesn't work in addition to being immoral. Canadians talk about their health system as though it is the ultimate, but it actually isn't working and is no more sustainable than the British model that is on the verge of collapse with the authorities saying, outright, that they simply will not take care of tens of thousands of people that they are supposed to be insuring.

In the UK there has been all sorts of talk over the years of restricting NHS treatment to varying groups of people.

The most obvious group to demonise are smokers because, well, you'd have to be living under a rock to not know that smoking causes all sorts of Very Bad Things to happen to your body. So we should punish the nasty smokers who are stupid enough to suffer these self-inflicted conditions by refusing them treatment. But there's a small issue there, namely that smokers pay far more in taxes on tobacco than they cost the NHS. Never mind, who cares about facts when you've got public money to save?

The next group is fat people. You know, the stupid ones who eat too much and move around too little. The ones too busy stuffing their pie holes with garbage to care about the damage it causes their bodies and the amount of money it costs to treat them. Stupid fat people, no knee replacements for you because your problem is self inflicted. I thought that one was great, as a fat person myself I was looking forward to my tax reduction in lieu of the services I wouldn't be getting. Wait, I was going to get a reduction in tax to correspond to the reduction in service, right? No, of course not. Silly me.

As with so much else the NHS was a really good idea when it was formed. It really doesn't say much for a society when people are pretty much left to die because they can't afford to be treated for conditions that are easy to treat. But then the NHS was expected to cover more and more and more and, as with most things governments get their hands on, it became a political football to be used whenever it was convenient. Any time the government wanted to cut spending the howling started about closing schools and hospitals - needless to say the government is very slow to cut their own levels of waste, their own "fact-finding missions" to exotic locations at public expense (flying first class, obviously) and their own perks and benefits.

In the UK the NHS is constantly trying to come up with more money, so now you get to pay to park at the hospital. Good luck with that - firstly you have to find a space (not always easy), then you have to pay for parking. In many hospitals you have to pay in advance, with nothing more than a best guess how much time you need. If your appointment is late, you have to decide whether to wait it out and hope you don't get a parking fine or towed away, or duck out to buy another parking ticket and hope you're not classified as a missed appointment if you aren't there when they call for you. At least some appointments are missed because patients are simply unable to find a space at the hospital and aren't in any condition to walk from the nearest space they can find. Even having a disabled badge is no guarantee of finding a space within a mile of the hospital. The parking is enforced by an outside company and they generally don't care that your appointment ran late - you overstayed your ticket so you get a fine.

Being largely a political football the NHS is also pulled in multiple directions. If the government refuses to fund a treatment like gender realignment they are immediately accused of being hostile to the LGBT community. If they refuse to fund IVF then they are hostile to hard-working couples. For good measure the way the NHS is organised means that different regions can set their own rules, creating what is often called a "postcode lottery" and strange geographic wrinkles where one couple can't get IVF funded while the couple one street away can, because the boundary between health authorities happens to run between the two houses.

It is good to know that you won't get a hideous bill after receiving treatment. When my father thought he was having a heart attack he called an ambulance that took him to hospital to be checked over (thankfully it turned out he hadn't had a heart attack at all) and didn't have to stop and think about whether he could come up with several thousand to pay the assorted bills. That's an area where the US system needs a lot of improvement. On the other hand having seen some of the utter uselessness elsewhere within the NHS (like the time my wife was expected to walk to the far end of the hospital for an X-ray, when she had a suspected broken foot), and the terrifying rate of hospital-acquired infections, there's clearly a lot of scope for the UK system to be improved.
 
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Andrew

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I will vote for Oprah if she gives me a free car... maybe twice [emoji6]
 

NewCreation435

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I will vote for Oprah if she gives me a free car... maybe twice [emoji6]

You could try emailing her. Be sure and specify the color :=D:
 

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Given the amount of money she makes versus what she gives away, it makes me wonder if she indeed does have a heart for those who are not rich, or if they are little more than a tax write off for her, or to perhaps paint her as a goddess in the eyes of those who have a little wishful thinking. You know, popularity votes.
Seems some like to think the worst of people when they do good.
 

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If Oprah were to run I would examine her platform like I'd do anyone else and then decide who I would vote for. I can't believe some of the replies I've seen here not to mention any names.
 

Imalive

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Seems some like to think the worst of people when they do good.

Tssss. A real socialist doesnt get much himself either. Hillary Obama thats all fake. We have a socialist party. They dont get paid much. I dont agree w em, but theyre not fake.
 

Albion

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Tssss. A real socialist doesnt get much himself either. Hillary Obama thats all fake. We have a socialist party.
Yes. We do too. It just doesn't go by that name.
 

Andrew

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Im looking forward to the Trump VS Oprah debates, yep the world is a freak show and we pay good money for it lol

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Proverbs 22:7 The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.

For someone who thinks American Presidents are largely figureheads and most of Congress and the Senate is largely bought and paid for, I wouldn't be surprised if Oprah ran and won. Nothing substantial is likely to change, just like with most presidents.
 

tango

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Proverbs 22:7 The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.

For someone who thinks American Presidents are largely figureheads and most of Congress and the Senate is largely bought and paid for, I wouldn't be surprised if Oprah ran and won. Nothing substantial is likely to change, just like with most presidents.


Oprah doesn't stand a chance. We all know total outsiders have no chance of getting elected.

Oh, wait....
 
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