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    Christian Theology - Thread: What does God's Sovereignty mean?

    1. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      This of course assumes that "the satan" described in Job is in fact Lucifer (aka Satan) which is also debated.

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      It accepts God's word as truth.
      Last edited by ImaginaryDay2; 01-05-2018 at 12:53 AM.

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      It accepts God's word as truth. Sadly, you seem bent on twisting a pretzel to make yourself king of your pond. I believe Dr Seuss wrote about you.
      Hebrew word "satan" is used as both a noun and verb.
      •The verb means "to be or act as an adversary" (see Ps. 38:20; 71:13; 109:4, 20, 21, 29; Zc 3:1).
      •The noun "satan" can mean "adversary" in general (personal or national) (see Nu 22:22, 32; 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22 1 Kgs 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Ps 109:6).

      CEB Numbers 22:22 Then God became angry because he went. So while he was riding on his donkey accompanied by his two servants, the LORD's messenger stood in the road as his adversary.

      CEB Numbers 22:32 The LORD's messenger said to him, "Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I've come out here as an adversary, because you took the road recklessly in front of me.

      NRS 1 Samuel 29:4 But the commanders of the Philistines were angry with him; and the commanders of the Philistines said to him, "Send the man back, so that he may return to the place that you have assigned to him; he shall not go down with us to battle, or else he may become an adversary to us in the battle. For how could this fellow reconcile himself to his lord? Would it not be with the heads of the men here?

      NRS 2 Samuel 19:22 But David said, "What have I to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah, that you should today become an adversary to me? Shall anyone be put to death in Israel this day? For do I not know that I am this day king over Israel?"

      NRS 1 Kings 5:4 But now the LORD my God has given me rest on every side; there is neither adversary nor misfortune.

      NRS 1 Kings 11:14 Then the LORD raised up an adversary against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; he was of the royal house in Edom.

      NRS 1 Kings 11:23 God raised up another adversary against Solomon, Rezon son of Eliada, who had fled from his master, King Hadadezer of Zobah.

      NRS 1 Kings 11:25 He was an adversary of Israel all the days of Solomon, making trouble as Hadad did; he despised Israel and reigned over Aram.

      NRS Psalm 109:6 They say, "Appoint a wicked man against him; let an accuser stand on his right.

      •The noun "satan" can also mean a "superhuman adversary," referring to a supernatural being
      (see Jb 1:6-9, 12, 2:1-4, 2:6-7; Zech. 3:2; 1 Chron 21:1). In most of these verses the Hebrew text says "the Satan." That is, the definite article ("the") is attached to the noun indicating that the word "Satan" is likely a title, not a proper name. (The use of the word "satan" in 1 Chronicles 21:1 is the only instance where the definite article is not present and there is disagreement whether this verse refers to a title or a proper name.)
      "In English, when we refer to someone by means of a proper name, we do not use a
      definite article (e.g. "Sarah," not "the Sarah"). In this practice Hebrew behaves identically. Therefore we must conclude that the individual in Job 1-2 and Zechariah 3:1-2 should be identified as "the accuser" (description of function) rather than as "Satan" (proper name)..."1

      Source : J. H. Walton, "Satan," in Dictionary of the Old Testament: Wisdom, Poetry and Writings

      Note how these two translations have chosen to render the Hebrew word "the-Satan" in Job:

      CEB Job 1:6 One day the divine beings came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Adversary also came among them.

      NIV Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

      Walton makes these points about profile of "the satan" in Job:2:

      1) He has access to the heavenly throne and is likely counted among the members of the divine council (see Ps 89:5-8)

      2) He doesn't initiate the discussion about Job

      3) His role may be like that of a "parliamentarian" who identifies policies that are out of order

      4) There is no emotion or "diabolical chuckle" associated with his comments and nothing intrinsically evil is described about the accuser. "Certainly what he does has negative consequences for Job, a righteous man, but the text makes it clear that God is at least equally responsible for what happens to Job, thus freeing the actions from being implicitly evil ... There is no tempting, corrupting, depraving or possessing."

      Walton concludes, "...we are not in a position to claim that the satan in the book of Job should be identified with Satan as we know him in the NT on the premise that they act the same way. In fact, there is little if any overlap between their two profiles. This does not prove that they are not the same individual; it merely reduces (if not eliminates) the basis for claiming that they must be equated. The profile of the Hebrew satan in the book of Job does not answer to the same description as the Christian view of Satan in the NT."

      So please stop with the insults.

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    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      Hebrew word "satan" is used as both a noun and verb.
      •The verb means "to be or act as an adversary" (see Ps. 38:20; 71:13; 109:4, 20, 21, 29; Zc 3:1).
      •The noun "satan" can mean "adversary" in general (personal or national) (see Nu 22:22, 32; 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22 1 Kgs 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Ps 109:6).

      CEB Numbers 22:22 Then God became angry because he went. So while he was riding on his donkey accompanied by his two servants, the LORD's messenger stood in the road as his adversary.

      CEB Numbers 22:32 The LORD's messenger said to him, "Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I've come out here as an adversary, because you took the road recklessly in front of me.

      NRS 1 Samuel 29:4 But the commanders of the Philistines were angry with him; and the commanders of the Philistines said to him, "Send the man back, so that he may return to the place that you have assigned to him; he shall not go down with us to battle, or else he may become an adversary to us in the battle. For how could this fellow reconcile himself to his lord? Would it not be with the heads of the men here?

      NRS 2 Samuel 19:22 But David said, "What have I to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah, that you should today become an adversary to me? Shall anyone be put to death in Israel this day? For do I not know that I am this day king over Israel?"

      NRS 1 Kings 5:4 But now the LORD my God has given me rest on every side; there is neither adversary nor misfortune.

      NRS 1 Kings 11:14 Then the LORD raised up an adversary against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; he was of the royal house in Edom.

      NRS 1 Kings 11:23 God raised up another adversary against Solomon, Rezon son of Eliada, who had fled from his master, King Hadadezer of Zobah.

      NRS 1 Kings 11:25 He was an adversary of Israel all the days of Solomon, making trouble as Hadad did; he despised Israel and reigned over Aram.

      NRS Psalm 109:6 They say, "Appoint a wicked man against him; let an accuser stand on his right.

      •The noun "satan" can also mean a "superhuman adversary," referring to a supernatural being
      (see Jb 1:6-9, 12, 2:1-4, 2:6-7; Zech. 3:2; 1 Chron 21:1). In most of these verses the Hebrew text says "the Satan." That is, the definite article ("the") is attached to the noun indicating that the word "Satan" is likely a title, not a proper name. (The use of the word "satan" in 1 Chronicles 21:1 is the only instance where the definite article is not present and there is disagreement whether this verse refers to a title or a proper name.)
      "In English, when we refer to someone by means of a proper name, we do not use a
      definite article (e.g. "Sarah," not "the Sarah"). In this practice Hebrew behaves identically. Therefore we must conclude that the individual in Job 1-2 and Zechariah 3:1-2 should be identified as "the accuser" (description of function) rather than as "Satan" (proper name)..."1

      Source : J. H. Walton, "Satan," in Dictionary of the Old Testament: Wisdom, Poetry and Writings

      Note how these two translations have chosen to render the Hebrew word "the-Satan" in Job:

      CEB Job 1:6 One day the divine beings came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Adversary also came among them.

      NIV Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

      Walton makes these points about profile of "the satan" in Job:2:

      1) He has access to the heavenly throne and is likely counted among the members of the divine council (see Ps 89:5-8)

      2) He doesn't initiate the discussion about Job

      3) His role may be like that of a "parliamentarian" who identifies policies that are out of order

      4) There is no emotion or "diabolical chuckle" associated with his comments and nothing intrinsically evil is described about the accuser. "Certainly what he does has negative consequences for Job, a righteous man, but the text makes it clear that God is at least equally responsible for what happens to Job, thus freeing the actions from being implicitly evil ... There is no tempting, corrupting, depraving or possessing."

      Walton concludes, "...we are not in a position to claim that the satan in the book of Job should be identified with Satan as we know him in the NT on the premise that they act the same way. In fact, there is little if any overlap between their two profiles. This does not prove that they are not the same individual; it merely reduces (if not eliminates) the basis for claiming that they must be equated. The profile of the Hebrew satan in the book of Job does not answer to the same description as the Christian view of Satan in the NT."

      So please stop with the insults.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
      You are looking for ways to get around God's sovereign authority over your life. Looking for ways to ignore Satan's existence (though Jesus never ignores the reality of Satan). Why is that? What has happened that you disdain God's authority over every part of your existence? I find liberalism fascinating. Continue please...

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      You are looking for ways to get around God's sovereign authority over your life. Looking for ways to ignore Satan's existence (though Jesus never ignores the reality of Satan). Why is that? What has happened that you disdain God's authority over every part of your existence? I find liberalism fascinating. Continue please...
      I am not ignoring Satan's existence. I am only providing reasonable evidence to support the position that "the satan" mentioned in Job may not necessarily be Satan (Lucifer). Nothing more, nothing less. Why do you assume that I am "trying to get around God's sovereign authority"? I made no such claim.

      Do you treat everyone who disagrees with your theological views with insults and accusations? That is not very charitable. I would greatly appreciate it if you change your tone and be more civil.

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    5. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      You are looking for ways to get around God's sovereign authority over your life. Looking for ways to ignore Satan's existence (though Jesus never ignores the reality of Satan). Why is that? What has happened that you disdain God's authority over every part of your existence? I find liberalism fascinating. Continue please...
      Did God send Lucifer to confront Balam (Numbers 22:22)? So why do you assume that Lucifer is "the satan" described in Job?

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    6. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      You are looking for ways to get around God's sovereign authority over your life. Looking for ways to ignore Satan's existence (though Jesus never ignores the reality of Satan). Why is that? What has happened that you disdain God's authority over every part of your existence? I find liberalism fascinating. Continue please...
      Could you please address the evidence I generously provided? It appears as though you cannot argue with the evidence supporting my claim. Insults and accusations does not change the facts presented to you.

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    7. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      I am not ignoring Satan's existence. I am only providing reasonable evidence to support the position that "the satan" mentioned in Job may not necessarily be Satan (Lucifer). Nothing more, nothing less. Why do you assume that I am "trying to get around God's sovereign authority"? I made no such claim.

      Do you treat everyone who disagrees with your theological views with insults and accusations? That is not very charitable. I would greatly appreciate it if you change your tone and be more civil.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
      You strike me as one who isn't forthright. I would appreciate you sharing your theology as you come off as a person with a liberal theology. I am a forthright person. You know where I stand. Show some courage and speak your mind.

    8. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      Did God send Lucifer to confront Balam (Numbers 22:22)? So why do you assume that Lucifer is "the satan" described in Job?

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
      Do you always change subjects? Notice how far off topic you have gone.

    9. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      Could you please address the evidence I generously provided? It appears as though you cannot argue with the evidence supporting my claim. Insults and accusations does not change the facts presented to you.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
      What evidence about God's Sovereignty have you provided?

    10. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      You strike me as one who isn't forthright. I would appreciate you sharing your theology as you come off as a person with a liberal theology. I am a forthright person. You know where I stand. Show some courage and speak your mind.
      So now I am not "forthright". Btw, I am not a "liberal theologan". Yet another baseless accusation. Are you ever going to address the evidence I provided?

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