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  • Page 15 of 23 FirstFirst ... 51314151617 ... LastLast
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    Christian Theology - Thread: What does God's Sovereignty mean?

    1. #141
      Imalive's Avatar
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    2. #142
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      The conversation in reverse order:
      For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
      Romans 11:32 NIV
      https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.11.32.NIV

      For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
      John 3:16*-‬17 NIV
      https://bible.com/bible/111/jhn.3.16-17.NIV

      This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
      1 Timothy 2:3*-‬6 NIV
      https://bible.com/bible/111/1ti.2.3-6.NIV

      The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
      2 Peter 3:9 NIV
      https://bible.com/bible/111/2pe.3.9.NIV

      As I have stated earlier, I am not proposing universal salvation. Rather, if we hold to a Calvinist position of sovereignty that rejects the free will of man, there is a problem. The scriptures I have referenced that God wills that ALL are saved. ALL meaning EVERYONE OR THE WORLD. However, we all clearly know that this isnt thr case. This leads two options. Either:

      1. God is a liar and doesn't really want everyone to be saved. (I fiercely reject)

      2. Something is preventing God from accomplishing His will.

      Calvinist will strongly reject premise 2. They must then struggle to reconcile the scriptures I have referenced to avoid premise 1. Many reformed theologians simply state that those scriptures were addresses to the elect and not intended to be universally normative. Calvinist then must apply that argument to James 5:19-20 which clearly says that the supposed "elect" can die to their sins and choose to "wonder from the truth".

      For those proposing free will, they turn to premise 2. However, free will is a limitation that God imposed on Himself for a specific reason. Because God is sovereign, He could remove this limitation at any time and we would be right in doing so. Now, in all fairness, there are plenty of scriptures that seem to reject idea of free will. It would be dishonest of me if I did not admit that. Which is why I fall in a middle ground of "Soft-determinism"

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    4. #143
      MennoSota is online now Veteran Member
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      Ezekiel 3:27
      ‘This is what the Sovereign lord says!’ Those who choose to listen will listen, but those who refuse will refuse, for they are rebels.

    5. #144
      MennoSota is online now Veteran Member
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      @Josiah, What does God's Sovereignty mean in Matthew 23?
      Matthew 23:1-13,15-39
      [1]Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
      [2]“The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses.
      [3]So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.
      [4]They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden.
      [5]“Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside, and they wear robes with extra long tassels.
      [6]And they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the seats of honor in the synagogues.
      [7]They love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces, and to be called ‘Rabbi.’
      [8]“Don’t let anyone call you ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one teacher, and all of you are equal as brothers and sisters.
      [9]And don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father.
      [10]And don’t let anyone call you ‘Teacher,’ for you have only one teacher, the Messiah.
      [11]The greatest among you must be a servant.
      [12]But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
      [13]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.
      [15]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!
      [16]“Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’
      [17]Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred?
      [18]And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding.
      [19]How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
      [20]When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it.
      [21]And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it.
      [22]And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne.
      [23]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.
      [24]Blind guides! You strain your water so you won’t accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel!
      [25]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy—full of greed and self-indulgence!
      [26]You blind Pharisee! First wash the inside of the cup and the dish, and then the outside will become clean, too.
      [27]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs—beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity.
      [28]Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.
      [29]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you build tombs for the prophets your ancestors killed, and you decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors destroyed.
      [30]Then you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would never have joined them in killing the prophets.’
      [31]“But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
      [32]Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started.
      [33]Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?
      [34]“Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city.
      [35]As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar.
      [36]I tell you the truth, this judgment will fall on this very generation.
      [37]“O*Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
      [38]And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.
      [39]For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the lord!’”

    6. #145
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Ezekiel 3:27
      ‘This is what the Sovereign lord says!’ Those who choose to listen will listen, but those who refuse will refuse, for they are rebels.
      I am confused. I was under the impression the the dead cannot "choose to listen". Could you please elaborate?

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    7. #146
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Ezekiel 3:27
      ‘This is what the Sovereign lord says!’ Those who choose to listen will listen, but those who refuse will refuse, for they are rebels.
      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      I am confused. I was under the impression the the dead cannot "choose to listen". Could you please elaborate?
      I could, but I am curious what MennoSota's response will be.
      Last edited by atpollard; 01-14-2018 at 08:54 PM.

    8. #147
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      I could, but I am curious what MennoSota's response will be.
      My use of Ezekiel 3 is a perfect example of how taking one section of one verse can lead a person to an entirely wrong belief. It is interesting how lucky bit the bait. Here's the context surrounding this verse.
      Ezekiel 3:24-27
      [24]Then the Spirit came into me and set me on my feet. He spoke to me and said, “Go to your house and shut yourself in.
      [25]There, son of man, you will be tied with ropes so you cannot go out among the people.
      [26]And I will make your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth so that you will be speechless and unable to rebuke them, for they are rebels.
      [27]But when I give you a message, I will loosen your tongue and let you speak. Then you will say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign lord says!’ Those who choose to listen will listen, but those who refuse will refuse, for they are rebels.

      The context is that God is going to use Ezekiel to speak to the Exiles living in Babylon. The only time Ezekiel will not be mute is when God loosens his tongue and can declare the words of the Sovereign Lord. The exiles will either choose to listen to Ezekiel or refuse to listen. God calls the exiles, rebels.
      So...this verse has nothing to do with salvation. Instead it has everything to do with whether rebellious exiles will listen to Ezekiel or not.
      It's funny how desperate some Christians are to rule over God and demand that God only be their consultant rather than their Sovereign Lord. Like ancient Judah, Christians have a rebel heart that needs to repent and bow to the Sovereign King.

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    10. #148
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      The exiles will either choose to listen to Ezekiel or refuse to listen.
      Once again, if man does not have free will and we are spiritually dead, how does the Israelites have a choice to listen or ignore. Couldn't God simply force them to listen?

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    11. #149
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      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      Have you tried looking in a reputable commentary?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      Why?
      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      Because more often than not, there isn't a definitive right or wrong answer. Only possibilities to choose from.

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      'These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.' ~1John5:13~

      Don't need a wishy-washy commentary, just a trustworthy KJV bible.
      os as

      ~Ignoring others...especially other
      believers, is anti-christian.~ 1John

    12. #150
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      'These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.' ~1John5:13~

      Don't need a wishy-washy commentary, just a trustworthy KJV bible.
      Because you probably know more than the collective team of theological scholars who dedicated their lives studying scripture? How's you ancient and Hebrew? These guys cut the KJV middle man and go to the actual manuscripts.

      I apologize but your comments sounds more like an excuse for wilful ignorance and intelectual laziness.

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