What does God's Sovereignty mean?
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user1234
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idk how to reformat/requote this, sorry, I tried to answer everything inside the post.
Imalive
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I got that immediately.
His father said he was dead. I just read it as it is. But other verses say they left so they were not from us and I never knew you, not first I knew you and then not. But the fact is that there are ppl in hell who did not head to warnings and left Him and started to preach false grace, that you can be a drunkard who doesnt repent and still be saved. Thats the lie I'm against and what some false teachers teach and they call it osas. Its antinomianism.
https://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/...rom-the-dead-almost-2-days-later-tells-story/
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Imalive
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I have a mouse in my couch. Cant I just catch it? Then he doesnt have to die from poison.
Nope didnt work. Never mind. I wish I was my avatar now. I'd catch him.
Nope didnt work. Never mind. I wish I was my avatar now. I'd catch him.
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user1234
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Where'd you get the silly idea that I doubt my salvation? I believe what the bible says, and am trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ for my salvation.
Gods grace. Osas. Done deal. Praise the Lord!
It's the false teachers that preach salvation by works, or law-keeping, or obedience-keeping, or self-effort, that say you can lose your salvation, not me.
Theyre the ones that preach doubt and fear and condemnation and lead ppl astray or into bondage.
I dont know what Derek Prince teaches, I hope it's good, but if he teaches some form of works salvation it's a false gospel.
I hope thats not the case ... if he's your favorite teacher, I hope he teaches the gospel, 1Cor15:1-4 ...of course, you know that's what I hope, right?
It depends...is that Gods sovereignty or mans free choice, lol. :cheer:
Imalive
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Its not a false gospel to be obedient and work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Jesus taught that.
http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/live_holy_life.php
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MennoSota
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[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION], God's sovereignty...any comment...
John 3:1-21
[1]There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee.
[2]After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. “Rabbi,” he said, “we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.”
[3]Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
[4]“What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”
[5]Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.
[6]Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.
[7]So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’
[8]The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”
[9]“How are these things possible?” Nicodemus asked.
[10]Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things?
[11]I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony.
[12]But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?
[13]No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.
[14]And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
[15]so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
[16]“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
[17]God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[18]“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.
[19]And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.
[20]All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
[21]But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”
John 3:1-21
[1]There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee.
[2]After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. “Rabbi,” he said, “we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.”
[3]Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
[4]“What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”
[5]Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.
[6]Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.
[7]So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’
[8]The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”
[9]“How are these things possible?” Nicodemus asked.
[10]Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things?
[11]I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony.
[12]But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?
[13]No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.
[14]And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
[15]so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
[16]“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
[17]God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[18]“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.
[19]And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.
[20]All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
[21]But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”
MennoSota
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Sovereignty? Explain...
Romans 2:1-29
[1]You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things.
[2]And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things.
[3]Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things?
[4]Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
[5]But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6]He will judge everyone according to what they have done.
[7]He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.
[8]But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.
[9]There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
[10]But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
[11]For God does not show favoritism.
[12]When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
[13]For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
[14]Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
[15]They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
[16]And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.
[17]You who call yourselves Jews are relying on God’s law, and you boast about your special relationship with him.
[18]You know what he wants; you know what is right because you have been taught his law.
[19]You are convinced that you are a guide for the blind and a light for people who are lost in darkness.
[20]You think you can instruct the ignorant and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that God’s law gives you complete knowledge and truth.
[21]Well then, if you teach others, why don’t you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal?
[22]You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you commit adultery? You condemn idolatry, but do you use items stolen from pagan temples?
[23]You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it.
[24]No wonder the Scriptures say, “The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you.”
[25]The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God’s law. But if you don’t obey God’s law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile.
[26]And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people?
[27]In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it.
[28]For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision.
[29]No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.
Romans 2:1-29
[1]You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things.
[2]And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things.
[3]Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things?
[4]Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
[5]But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6]He will judge everyone according to what they have done.
[7]He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.
[8]But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.
[9]There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
[10]But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
[11]For God does not show favoritism.
[12]When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
[13]For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
[14]Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
[15]They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
[16]And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.
[17]You who call yourselves Jews are relying on God’s law, and you boast about your special relationship with him.
[18]You know what he wants; you know what is right because you have been taught his law.
[19]You are convinced that you are a guide for the blind and a light for people who are lost in darkness.
[20]You think you can instruct the ignorant and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that God’s law gives you complete knowledge and truth.
[21]Well then, if you teach others, why don’t you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal?
[22]You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you commit adultery? You condemn idolatry, but do you use items stolen from pagan temples?
[23]You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it.
[24]No wonder the Scriptures say, “The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you.”
[25]The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God’s law. But if you don’t obey God’s law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile.
[26]And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people?
[27]In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it.
[28]For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision.
[29]No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.
user1234
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Nahh, come on, that's just bogus, dont ya think?...where do those ppl come up w that stuff, anyway? Aint in any bible I read.
But also, I never heard anybody (any TRUE CHRISTIAN, I should say) teach that you can go be a drunkard that doesnt 'repent' and still be saved, lol.
First of all, I dont think any drunkard would know what theyre talking about ....'Ummm, Be SAVED??? WHAT'S THAT?!'
That kind of terminology isnt really used by the world...or drunkards...for the most part.
To say it's a FACT that ppl are in hell because of not heeding warnings and leaving Him (Jesus)??? Well, ppl might wind up in hell bc of sin and not believing in Jesus for salvation, but they didnt LOSE salvation...they just werent saved.
If they would have heeded the 'warnings', MAYBE they would have gotten saved, but the gospel isnt really warnings to be heeded, it's the death burial and resurrection of Jesus...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That's the gospel.
If a person heeds that, they get saved and THEN God starts sanctifying them.
It's not, 'They were saved and then left (lost) their salvation.'
It's more likely that they werent saved (at least, not at that time) and they left Him. (Jesus)
Do you see the difference?
The ones that Jesus says He never knew them werent saved, bc they were trusting in their own works, or religion, or obedience, or self, to save them, rather than trusting in the finished work of Jesus alone.
Ive heard ppl use this 'false grace' term before, but it usually only comes from ppl who believe in works-salvation (a lie from the devil) or ppl who've been deceived by others or dont understand what Once Saved - Always Saved means, and they might just be condemning a misrepresentation, not the real thing.
I used to misunderstand it myself (but I hope I didnt condemn others for it...ppl are free to believe what they want.)
But what those teachers really do is insult God...
It cost God EVERYTHING, His beloved only begotten Son was beaten beyond recognition and brutally executed...Crucified...and He was completely innocent of any wrong, and the Father looked away and allowed it to happen, so He could save a bunch of rotten no-good sinners like us...like me, at least, ... as a gift. By His grace. That's not false or cheap!
Ive heard 'easy-believism', too. Wow! Well, God did make salvation so easy a child can get it .... Or a knucklehead like me, oy!
God loved us so, He made it so that all the hard part was on Jesus, and all we have to do is believe.
But if it's such easy-believism, how come nobody believes it, lol. I mean, ok, millions do, but so many others want to add or subtract or change it and complicate it so much.
Idk, I guess I have to remember God's grace is bigger than I realize, and I make a lousy Holy Ghost, lol, meaning I cant save anybody, or get them to believe the gospel, I can only try to put it out there and pray for others.... (And I admit I dont do very good job of that, either)
Meanwhile, I have a hard enough time 'working out my own salvation w fear and trembling.'
But, that is work OUT ... the salvation we ALREADY HAVE!! Not 'work FOR' as some ppl teach.
And it's not WORKS. We need to take the gift that God has given us and work it out into other areas of life, and grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus.
It has nothing to do with working for, working to keep, or 'losing' salvation.
Anyways, I'm begging, I'm pleading, I IMPLORE you to look again at the teaching of works-righteousness as compared to trusting in Jesus Christ alone. I want so much to rejoice together with you over just how good and loving and safe-keeping our Saviour is. He has so many promises laid out for all of us, beyond what we can imagine. Things that follow salvation, but first we must be saved.
And no, it's not always so easy.
It goes against our own fallen sinful nature, pride and ego, it goes against the worlds message (messages, there are many), it goes against the false teachings and practices right within the 'professing church', wolves, and many denominations, cults and religions, and it goes against the devils lies that try to convince us that God doesnt love us or cant be trusted or Jesus didnt save us.
No, it's not always the easy way, but Jesus is the ONLY way, and He's worthy of all our trust to save us and keep us and bring us home.
And now I need to pray...this aint always easy, either. God bless you.
atpollard
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Respectfully, I am not the one confused in this non-conversation. I never said you believed in Universal Salvation. I said most of the the "proof verses" you listed say nothing close to what you claim they support. Your response fails to touch anywhere close to my point. You just repeat unsupported opinion.
Listing random verses that do not support your claim is not proof.
That was my point.
meluckycharms
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Perhaps I am confused. I am having trouble remembering what you are referencing. Can you tell me which post we are talking about?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Imalive
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Nahh, come on, that's just bogus, dont ya think?...where do those ppl come up w that stuff, anyway? Aint in any bible I read.
But also, I never heard anybody (any TRUE CHRISTIAN, I should say) teach that you can go be a drunkard that doesnt 'repent' and still be saved, lol.
First of all, I dont think any drunkard would know what theyre talking about ....'Ummm, Be SAVED??? WHAT'S THAT?!'
That kind of terminology isnt really used by the world...or drunkards...for the most part.
To say it's a FACT that ppl are in hell because of not heeding warnings and leaving Him (Jesus)??? Well, ppl might wind up in hell bc of sin and not believing in Jesus for salvation, but they didnt LOSE salvation...they just werent saved.
If they would have heeded the 'warnings', MAYBE they would have gotten saved, but the gospel isnt really warnings to be heeded, it's the death burial and resurrection of Jesus...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That's the gospel.
If a person heeds that, they get saved and THEN God starts sanctifying them.
It's not, 'They were saved and then left (lost) their salvation.'
It's more likely that they werent saved (at least, not at that time) and they left Him. (Jesus)
Do you see the difference?
The ones that Jesus says He never knew them werent saved, bc they were trusting in their own works, or religion, or obedience, or self, to save them, rather than trusting in the finished work of Jesus alone.
Ive heard ppl use this 'false grace' term before, but it usually only comes from ppl who believe in works-salvation (a lie from the devil) or ppl who've been deceived by others or dont understand what Once Saved - Always Saved means, and they might just be condemning a misrepresentation, not the real thing.
I used to misunderstand it myself (but I hope I didnt condemn others for it...ppl are free to believe what they want.)
But what those teachers really do is insult God...
It cost God EVERYTHING, His beloved only begotten Son was beaten beyond recognition and brutally executed...Crucified...and He was completely innocent of any wrong, and the Father looked away and allowed it to happen, so He could save a bunch of rotten no-good sinners like us...like me, at least, ... as a gift. By His grace. That's not false or cheap!
Ive heard 'easy-believism', too. Wow! Well, God did make salvation so easy a child can get it .... Or a knucklehead like me, oy!
God loved us so, He made it so that all the hard part was on Jesus, and all we have to do is believe.
But if it's such easy-believism, how come nobody believes it, lol. I mean, ok, millions do, but so many others want to add or subtract or change it and complicate it so much.
Idk, I guess I have to remember God's grace is bigger than I realize, and I make a lousy Holy Ghost, lol, meaning I cant save anybody, or get them to believe the gospel, I can only try to put it out there and pray for others.... (And I admit I dont do very good job of that, either)
Meanwhile, I have a hard enough time 'working out my own salvation w fear and trembling.'
But, that is work OUT ... the salvation we ALREADY HAVE!! Not 'work FOR' as some ppl teach.
And it's not WORKS. We need to take the gift that God has given us and work it out into other areas of life, and grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus.
It has nothing to do with working for, working to keep, or 'losing' salvation.
Anyways, I'm begging, I'm pleading, I IMPLORE you to look again at the teaching of works-righteousness as compared to trusting in Jesus Christ alone. I want so much to rejoice together with you over just how good and loving and safe-keeping our Saviour is. He has so many promises laid out for all of us, beyond what we can imagine. Things that follow salvation, but first we must be saved.
And no, it's not always so easy.
It goes against our own fallen sinful nature, pride and ego, it goes against the worlds message (messages, there are many), it goes against the false teachings and practices right within the 'professing church', wolves, and many denominations, cults and religions, and it goes against the devils lies that try to convince us that God doesnt love us or cant be trusted or Jesus didnt save us.
No, it's not always the easy way, but Jesus is the ONLY way, and He's worthy of all our trust to save us and keep us and bring us home.
And now I need to pray...this aint always easy, either. God bless you.
Its in my Bible. Jesus said it.
Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
Mary Bexter saw a preacher in hell who was first saved and preached good, but then he wanted money and he preached half truths, that you cannot get unsaved and if you do the most horrible sins you're still saved and now he's in hell and a lot of of ppl because of him. That's the falling away, false teachers, foolish virgins. Foolish virgins and the foolish man heard the Word and did not do it.
Their lamps had gone out. They died.
That testimony from that guy who got raised from the dead is true. Ppl have also seen family members in hell who were saved but refused to forgive. Jesus says that. If you dont forgive others He wont forgive you.
I know that testimony from that guy is true. Theres a movie about it. And I saw that movie when my kid was dead and I asked them to pray and he lived again for 2 weeks. I saw angels bringing him back. Later the gynacologist said it couldnt be so but he grew and I saw the heart beat too. W my other kid it was a miracle too but apparently w me he always 'has seen it wrong, that cant be'. Oh well.
Btw have you never noticed that the ones who say you have to obey, just like Jesus says and that you have to be holy, are the ones used in the biggest revivals?
Azusastreet was a holiness church. Welsh revival. Brownsville, Steve Hill, thats still going on in India. Holiness preacher.
Jesus was and is a holiness Preacher. Stay in the Vine and then you bear fruit. Abide or you get cut off.
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Imalive
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Holiness is not false teaching. The fruit is revival.
http://www.ibeseech.com/revival-and-repentance/
http://www.ibeseech.com/revival-and-repentance/
atpollard
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Where did JESUS teach that?
Your link did not include even a single quote from Jesus.
(Your statement is not false, I merely challenge you to provide better Biblical support.)
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Are we to focus only on the "red letter" sections of our Bibles and not consider the rest of it to be the word of God as well?
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atpollard
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No, of course not. However, we cannot paraphrase Philipians 2:12 ("So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;") written by Paul and ascribe the quote to Jesus as her post implied. Jesus had much to say on works (good and bad) but "work out tour salvation with fear and trembling" was not among Jesus' words. Accepting the message of Jesus was fully compatible with the statement of Paul, I merely pointed out that the link she provided as support included NO 'Red Letter Words' at all.
Shouldn't a link supporting what Jesus taught include SOME Red Letter Words?
I am confused over the abundance of opinion that is used to debate "Theology" (the section of the board we are in) with little to no scripture presented in support. Perhaps my expectations are unreasonable.
Sorry.
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Understood.
Imalive
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Where did He not teach holiness? He was a living Example. He died to purify His people.
And afterwards they had revival in Acts. Noone dared join. Where does Jesus or one of His disciples teach you don't have to be holy.
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:48 | NIV
Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.
Abide in Me or you will be cut off.
If you call your brother a fool you will go to the high counsel. I dont know these texts in English.
Pluck your eye out if it hinders you so you don't go to hell.
If your righteousness doesnt succeed that of the pharisees
Matthew 4:17 vs 19 vs 23
Mat 5:13-48.
Matthew 6: 19-24
Matthew 7:1
Matthew 7:13-23 24-27
Matthew 10: 39
Matthew 13 sower
Matthew 18: 8-9
Mat. 18: 15-18 21-22
Mat 19: 9
Mat 19: 16-21
Mat 21: 12-13 cleaning temple
Mat 21: 28-32
Mat 24: 10-13 45-51
Mat 25: 1-13
Mat 25: 31-46
Mat 28: 19
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meluckycharms
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I don't think it was Jesus, but Paul stated it in Philippians 2:12. James also mentions something to the effect of faith without deeds is dead.
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