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  • Page 21 of 21 FirstFirst ... 11192021
    Results 201 to 208 of 208

    Christian Theology - Thread: What does God's Sovereignty mean?

    1. #201
      Imalive's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Does it? I think that would mean that he's chosen his elect for whatever reason and that the others are going to be judged in the absence of such a preference. They will, therefore, be eternally lost, but not because God dictated their fate (as would be the case with double predestination) but, rather, on their own record.
      If they go to hell for rejecting Him, the others go to heaven for not rejecting Him, which is accepting.
      If this is a sinking ship and I pick here 3 ppl to save, Snerf, otherwise he gets mad, meluckycharms cuz he has such a nice avatar and ehm I'll throw a lot for the third and the rest can drown. I dont know hear, but its arbitrary, partial and then the others just drown cuz i dont pick em, which is quite hateful, not because they reject me. its pick or choose. single predestination makes no sense to me except when its on the basis of knowing their hearts that they will listen to Him.

    2. #202
      atpollard is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      Agreed. Which is why we need to seriously take a look at the genre. Is it historical narrative, poetic allegory, ect...? We also have to ask ourselves who is witnessing the conversation between God and the satan to have recorded it? Why was the dialogue in poetic form? Also, why is the book of Job almost identical to the Babylonian Theodicy (see link)?

      http://www.etana.org/node/582
      I once read an analysis of Genesis 1 that compared it to Sumerian, Babylonian and Egyptian creation myths ... the usual suspects that Bible critics claim it was copied from ... and he compared the differences rather than the similarities. An interesting patern emerged in which God appeared to have structured his creation account as a polemic refuting the existance of all other deities and proclaiming their stories lies. As a quick example, all of the other creation myths start with when and how the 'gods' were created, but Genesis starts with a God who just exists, before anything else exists.

      I wonder if Job might be part of God setting the record straight on another universal human question and the similarity to the Babylonian Theodicy is not an accident, but a polemic shot across the Babylonian bow by the true God.

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    4. #203
      MennoSota is offline Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      But if choosing is just for a task it does. The Bible says 2 opposites if you take Romans 9 as predestination. You have to ignore one set or the other or make em fit.
      I don't understand what you are talking about.
      What does the text say?
      Paul tells us that not all Israel is through the ancestral line of Abraham, but instead Israel comes through the promise given to Abraham and all that would be given the gift of faith by God's choosing.
      The author in your link has missed the meaning almost entirely, which may explain why you are also missing the meaning in Romans 9.
      Arminians really can't get around Romans 9 without butchering the passage.

    5. #204
      MennoSota is offline Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      If they go to hell for rejecting Him, the others go to heaven for not rejecting Him, which is accepting.
      You have created salvation by works apart from grace, which is not the gospel.
      In your comment, salvation is not by the grace of God, at his choosing, but instead it is all about humans accepting or rejecting. It is entirely human centered.

    6. #205
      meluckycharms's Avatar
      meluckycharms is offline Apprentice Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      I don't understand what you are talking about.
      What does the text say?
      Paul tells us that not all Israel is through the ancestral line of Abraham, but instead Israel comes through the promise given to Abraham and all that would be given the gift of faith by God's choosing.
      The author in your link has missed the meaning almost entirely, which may explain why you are also missing the meaning in Romans 9.
      Arminians really can't get around Romans 9 without butchering the passage.
      Well...Romans 9 is clearly describing the nation of Israel and not intended to be normative for all people.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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    8. #206
      atpollard is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      Well...Romans 9 is clearly describing the nation of Israel and not intended to be normative for all people.
      ... are you sure?

      Romans 9:6-8 NKJV But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

      Romans 9:22-26 NKJV What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
      As He says also in Hosea:

      ​​“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
      ​​And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
      ​​“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
      ​‘​You are not My people,’
      ​​There they shall be called sons of the living God."


      It sure sounds like it applies to gentiles as well as Jews and Paul even uses "they" in verse 6 (excluding himself from Jews, his brothers) and uses "us" in verse 24, including himself with the gentiles. The distinction seems to be between the people of Faith and those not of faith. Historic Israel is just the example given for a universal lesson.

    9. #207
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      ... are you sure?

      Romans 9:6-8 NKJV But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

      Romans 9:22-26 NKJV What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
      As He says also in Hosea:

      ​​“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
      ​​And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
      ​​“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
      ​‘​You are not My people,’
      ​​There they shall be called sons of the living God."


      It sure sounds like it applies to gentiles as well as Jews and Paul even uses "they" in verse 6 (excluding himself from Jews, his brothers) and uses "us" in verse 24, including himself with the gentiles. The distinction seems to be between the people of Faith and those not of faith. Historic Israel is just the example given for a universal lesson.
      No, go read those links. That guy is fabulous. One pot wasnt willing in his hands and such. Lol he explains it better than me though.

    10. #208
      atpollard is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      No, go read those links. That guy is fabulous. One pot wasnt willing in his hands and such. Lol he explains it better than me though.
      Those links are likely arguing the "people get to choose" position against the hardline "election" position. I have no dog in that fight. I like Arminianism, I just can never accept it as true based on my personal salvation experience.
      It just seemed odd for someone to claim that Paun, apostle to the Gentiles, included a chapter directed exclusively at National Jews in the middle of a letter written to the gentile saints in Rome. I am only challenging the claim that it is not "universally applicable".

      I do get that the OT events quoted are first and foremost about historic Israel, I just think that God is no less soverign when it comes to His Church than he was over His Nation. If anything, God is even MORE in control ... now he is giving new hearts and the Holy Spirit is taking up permanent residence.

      ... but I will read them.

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