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    Christian Theology - Thread: What does God's Sovereignty mean?

    1. #131
      meluckycharms's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Respectfully, I am not the one confused in this non-conversation. I never said you believed in Universal Salvation. I said most of the the "proof verses" you listed say nothing close to what you claim they support. Your response fails to touch anywhere close to my point. You just repeat unsupported opinion.

      Listing random verses that do not support your claim is not proof.
      That was my point.
      Perhaps I am confused. I am having trouble remembering what you are referencing. Can you tell me which post we are talking about?

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

    2. #132
      Imalive's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      Nahh, come on, that's just bogus, dont ya think?...where do those ppl come up w that stuff, anyway? Aint in any bible I read.

      But also, I never heard anybody (any TRUE CHRISTIAN, I should say) teach that you can go be a drunkard that doesnt 'repent' and still be saved, lol.

      First of all, I dont think any drunkard would know what theyre talking about ....'Ummm, Be SAVED??? WHAT'S THAT?!'
      That kind of terminology isnt really used by the world...or drunkards...for the most part.

      To say it's a FACT that ppl are in hell because of not heeding warnings and leaving Him (Jesus)??? Well, ppl might wind up in hell bc of sin and not believing in Jesus for salvation, but they didnt LOSE salvation...they just werent saved.

      If they would have heeded the 'warnings', MAYBE they would have gotten saved, but the gospel isnt really warnings to be heeded, it's the death burial and resurrection of Jesus...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That's the gospel.
      If a person heeds that, they get saved and THEN God starts sanctifying them.

      It's not, 'They were saved and then left (lost) their salvation.'
      It's more likely that they werent saved (at least, not at that time) and they left Him. (Jesus)
      Do you see the difference?
      The ones that Jesus says He never knew them werent saved, bc they were trusting in their own works, or religion, or obedience, or self, to save them, rather than trusting in the finished work of Jesus alone.

      Ive heard ppl use this 'false grace' term before, but it usually only comes from ppl who believe in works-salvation (a lie from the devil) or ppl who've been deceived by others or dont understand what Once Saved - Always Saved means, and they might just be condemning a misrepresentation, not the real thing.
      I used to misunderstand it myself (but I hope I didnt condemn others for it...ppl are free to believe what they want.)

      But what those teachers really do is insult God...
      It cost God EVERYTHING, His beloved only begotten Son was beaten beyond recognition and brutally executed...Crucified...and He was completely innocent of any wrong, and the Father looked away and allowed it to happen, so He could save a bunch of rotten no-good sinners like us...like me, at least, ... as a gift. By His grace. That's not false or cheap!

      Ive heard 'easy-believism', too. Wow! Well, God did make salvation so easy a child can get it .... Or a knucklehead like me, oy!
      God loved us so, He made it so that all the hard part was on Jesus, and all we have to do is believe.

      But if it's such easy-believism, how come nobody believes it, lol. I mean, ok, millions do, but so many others want to add or subtract or change it and complicate it so much.

      Idk, I guess I have to remember God's grace is bigger than I realize, and I make a lousy Holy Ghost, lol, meaning I cant save anybody, or get them to believe the gospel, I can only try to put it out there and pray for others.... (And I admit I dont do very good job of that, either)

      Meanwhile, I have a hard enough time 'working out my own salvation w fear and trembling.'
      But, that is work OUT ... the salvation we ALREADY HAVE!! Not 'work FOR' as some ppl teach.
      And it's not WORKS. We need to take the gift that God has given us and work it out into other areas of life, and grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus.
      It has nothing to do with working for, working to keep, or 'losing' salvation.

      Anyways, I'm begging, I'm pleading, I IMPLORE you to look again at the teaching of works-righteousness as compared to trusting in Jesus Christ alone. I want so much to rejoice together with you over just how good and loving and safe-keeping our Saviour is. He has so many promises laid out for all of us, beyond what we can imagine. Things that follow salvation, but first we must be saved.
      And no, it's not always so easy.
      It goes against our own fallen sinful nature, pride and ego, it goes against the worlds message (messages, there are many), it goes against the false teachings and practices right within the 'professing church', wolves, and many denominations, cults and religions, and it goes against the devils lies that try to convince us that God doesnt love us or cant be trusted or Jesus didnt save us.

      No, it's not always the easy way, but Jesus is the ONLY way, and He's worthy of all our trust to save us and keep us and bring us home.
      And now I need to pray...this aint always easy, either. God bless you.
      Its in my Bible. Jesus said it.

      Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

      Mary Bexter saw a preacher in hell who was first saved and preached good, but then he wanted money and he preached half truths, that you cannot get unsaved and if you do the most horrible sins you're still saved and now he's in hell and a lot of of ppl because of him. That's the falling away, false teachers, foolish virgins. Foolish virgins and the foolish man heard the Word and did not do it.
      Their lamps had gone out. They died.
      That testimony from that guy who got raised from the dead is true. Ppl have also seen family members in hell who were saved but refused to forgive. Jesus says that. If you dont forgive others He wont forgive you.
      I know that testimony from that guy is true. Theres a movie about it. And I saw that movie when my kid was dead and I asked them to pray and he lived again for 2 weeks. I saw angels bringing him back. Later the gynacologist said it couldnt be so but he grew and I saw the heart beat too. W my other kid it was a miracle too but apparently w me he always 'has seen it wrong, that cant be'. Oh well.
      Btw have you never noticed that the ones who say you have to obey, just like Jesus says and that you have to be holy, are the ones used in the biggest revivals?
      Azusastreet was a holiness church. Welsh revival. Brownsville, Steve Hill, thats still going on in India. Holiness preacher.
      Jesus was and is a holiness Preacher. Stay in the Vine and then you bear fruit. Abide or you get cut off.
      Last edited by Imalive; 01-13-2018 at 07:06 AM.

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    4. #133
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      Holiness is not false teaching. The fruit is revival.
      http://www.ibeseech.com/revival-and-repentance/

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    6. #134
      atpollard is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      Its not a false gospel to be obedient and work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Jesus taught that.

      http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/live_holy_life.php
      Where did JESUS teach that?
      Your link did not include even a single quote from Jesus.

      (Your statement is not false, I merely challenge you to provide better Biblical support.)

    7. #135
      Albion's Avatar
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      Are we to focus only on the "red letter" sections of our Bibles and not consider the rest of it to be the word of God as well?
      Last edited by Albion; 01-13-2018 at 11:13 AM.

    8. #136
      atpollard is offline Junior Member
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      The conversation in reverse order:

      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      Perhaps I am confused. I am having trouble remembering what you are referencing. Can you tell me which post we are talking about?

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Respectfully, I am not the one confused in this non-conversation. I never said you believed in Universal Salvation. I said most of the the "proof verses" you listed say nothing close to what you claim they support. Your response fails to touch anywhere close to my point. You just repeat unsupported opinion.

      Listing random verses that do not support your claim is not proof.
      That was my point.
      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      You are confused. I don't believe in universal salvation. Rather, I don't believe in limited atonement nor dual-predestination. Meaning that everyone has the opportunity to be saved. However, many choose not to take that opportunity. Jesus died for everyone. All means all. Not just the elect.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      1 Tim 2:4 ... maybe, I would need to look closer at the context to offer a meaningful opinion.

      2 Peter 3:9 ... No, not really. Looking at it in context:

      2 Peter 3:3-9 NASB
      3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For [fn]when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
      8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

      Makes it clear that God will most certainly NOT save all men. The question being asked by mockers is "where is this judgement of God?" and verse 9 presents the answer that God is delaying his wrath that will surely fall on the ungodly until all of the godly have come to repentence. 2 Peter 3:9 in no way negates the possibility of limited atonement as far as I can tell. It says NOTHING about whose sins Christ died for, nor does it say that God desires all men to be saved.

      John 3:16 ... Ah, the ever popular John 3:16. Taken all by itself, we use it to teach sports fans everywhere that God believes in Universalism. Why don't people just look two verses further down and quote John 3:18? So let's al least read the whole paragraph , shall we:

      John 3:16-21 NASB

      16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

      It doesn't actually say that God WANTS all men to believe, does it? It says that whoever believes will not perish (John 3:16) and that those that do not believe are already judged (John 3:18) and that men love darkness (all men?) and avoid the light of Jesus (John 3:19-20) and only the deeds wrought in God come into the light (John 3:21). Hey, isn't that what Calvinism and verses like John 6:44 say?

      Sorry, I have to go to bed.
      Early morning tomorrow at work.
      Feel free to read the rest of your scriptures in context and see if they actually say anything about God wanting all men to be saved.
      So far, most are not even close.
      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:16, John 1:29, Romans 11:32, 1 John 2:2 suggests that God desires that all are saved and rejects limited atonement.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

    9. #137
      atpollard is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Are we to focus only on the "red letter" sections of our Bibles and not consider the rest of it to be the word of God as well?
      No, of course not. However, we cannot paraphrase Philipians 2:12 ("So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;") written by Paul and ascribe the quote to Jesus as her post implied. Jesus had much to say on works (good and bad) but "work out tour salvation with fear and trembling" was not among Jesus' words. Accepting the message of Jesus was fully compatible with the statement of Paul, I merely pointed out that the link she provided as support included NO 'Red Letter Words' at all.

      Shouldn't a link supporting what Jesus taught include SOME Red Letter Words?
      I am confused over the abundance of opinion that is used to debate "Theology" (the section of the board we are in) with little to no scripture presented in support. Perhaps my expectations are unreasonable.

      Sorry.

    10. #138
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      No, of course not. However, we cannot paraphrase Philipians 2:12 ("So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;") written by Paul and ascribe the quote to Jesus as her post implied. Jesus had much to say on works (good and bad) but "work out tour salvation with fear and trembling" was not among Jesus' words. Accepting the message of Jesus was fully compatible with the statement of Paul, I merely pointed out that the link she provided as support included NO 'Red Letter Words' at all.
      Understood.

    11. #139
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Where did JESUS teach that?
      Your link did not include even a single quote from Jesus.

      (Your statement is not false, I merely challenge you to provide better Biblical support.)
      Where did He not teach holiness? He was a living Example. He died to purify His people.
      And afterwards they had revival in Acts. Noone dared join. Where does Jesus or one of His disciples teach you don't have to be holy.

      Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
      Matthew 5:48 | NIV

      Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.
      Abide in Me or you will be cut off.
      If you call your brother a fool you will go to the high counsel. I dont know these texts in English.
      Pluck your eye out if it hinders you so you don't go to hell.
      If your righteousness doesnt succeed that of the pharisees

      Matthew 4:17 vs 19 vs 23

      Mat 5:13-48.
      Matthew 6: 19-24
      Matthew 7:1
      Matthew 7:13-23 24-27
      Matthew 10: 39
      Matthew 13 sower
      Matthew 18: 8-9
      Mat. 18: 15-18 21-22
      Mat 19: 9
      Mat 19: 16-21
      Mat 21: 12-13 cleaning temple
      Mat 21: 28-32
      Mat 24: 10-13 45-51
      Mat 25: 1-13
      Mat 25: 31-46
      Mat 28: 19
      Last edited by Imalive; 01-13-2018 at 01:42 PM.

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    13. #140
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Where did JESUS teach that?
      Your link did not include even a single quote from Jesus.

      (Your statement is not false, I merely challenge you to provide better Biblical support.)
      I don't think it was Jesus, but Paul stated it in Philippians 2:12. James also mentions something to the effect of faith without deeds is dead.

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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