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    Christian Theology - Thread: Homosexuals and salvation

    1. #1
      Andrew's Avatar
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      Homosexuals and salvation

      I haven't come across any testimonials of a homosexual getting saved and living a heterosexual lifestyle, I believe it to be rare if any, to come across at least. Homosexuals are pretty much ahead in PC culture and seem to be culprits and contributors in the war on Christianity here in America.
      If one were to become saved would they have to become straight? Would that be works? or do they continue the gay lifestyle in faith?
      Some arguments insists that homosexual is not recognized as a sin in the bible.

      The video claims that the words used to describe homosexuality in the bible are taken out of context today but they don't offer any solutions other than referring to objecting the sexual pagan rituals of the time.
      Either way we are told to love and not judge, I just can't be around them when they eye me and hit on me, seriously the majority lack in moral when it comes to being respectful and if you tell them anything you are 'homophobic'.

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      There are testimonies enough, but also from ppl who just become celibate. Why do they have to become hetero? As if that makes you holy. Most hetero's have unclean demons. They do a better job ruining the church w living together and divorcing and almost noone waiting before marriage or living holy. We had one guy in church who had sex w men and women on the street. He was raped as a kid and his wife wanted nothing for 18 years. He converted and married a woman who wanted something.

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      It is sin no matter how they choose to twist scripture and an abomination nbefore God
      Isaiah 40:31

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      Answering the question based on a conservative reading of Scripture (simply because a more liberal reading renders the question pointless).

      My understanding is that Scripture teaches that homosexual acts are sinful. To say something like "homosexuality is a sin" is somewhat misleading because it fails to differentiate between the desire and the action. For a man to desire other men is no more sinful than me desiring my neighbor's wife - what matters isn't whether or not the desire exists but what we do about the desire. Our actions determine whether a temptation develops into a sin - just as if I respond to a desire for my neighbor's wife by lusting after her, mentally undressing her or pursuing a physical affair with her then I fall into sin whereas if I respond to it by doing none of those things I do not sin, so a man who desires another man has the freedom to choose whether to follow a path of lust and sexual activity (falling into sin) or to resist the temptation (not falling into sin).

      Although homosexuality is very much a battleground as far as the Christian faith is concerned there is really no need for it to be. Speaking as a former occultist there is a clear comparison. I am still sometimes tempted by the power offered by the occult - in that regard I'm really not all that different to the man tempted by his sexual attraction to another man. Having been involved in the occult, when I came to Christ I needed to stop the sinful activity but the temptations will probably follow me for the rest of my life. Likewise someone coming to Christ needs to stop sinful activity (whatever the nature of their sin), but will also very likely face comparable temptations for the rest of their life.

      It's not like the devil doesn't know where we are likely to be weak, simply by observing the things we did prior to coming to faith in Christ. And in the context of a spiritual battle it makes sense to attack where we are weak rather than where we are strong. As a straight man there is no point in the devil trying to get me to fall by presenting me with a very attractive man, simply because I have no interest in men in that way - the devil would be far more likely to succeed by presenting me with something that might actually tempt me to sin.

      Unless you know a very large number of gay people it's probably not helpful to refer to "most of them". I've known a few gay people personally, and worked with several more. My experience is that they are no different in terms of showing respect than straight people - I don't think I have received a single unwanted sexual advance from a gay man. One gay couple I know are legally married - one of them is somewhat flamboyant but the other isn't one you would immediately figure was probably gay if you met him in isolation. Many of the gay people I worked with were no more open about their preferences than other people - only talking about their partners in more social contexts once a more social relationship existed with them.

      Yes, there are the "militant gays" out there who seem to exist to cause problems and find homophobia even where none exists, just like there are "militant blacks" who see racism around every corner and "militant women" who see sexism in every situation. Despite being the ones that get media attention it's probably safe to say they are a minority, just as the "militant Christians" like the Westboro Baptist "Church" are the ones who get media attention despite not representing what most self-professed Christians believe.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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    8. #5
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      Rosario Butterfield is one of the best spokespersons I know of on this subject. She is a former lesbian who taught literature at Syracuse University. Her story and her views on homosexuality are worth reading.
      http://rosariabutterfield.com
      Rosaria Champagne Butterfield, a former tenured professor of English and women’s studies at Syracuse University, converted to Christ in 1999 in what she describes as a train wreck. Her memoir The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert chronicles that difficult journey. Rosaria is married to Kent, a Reformed Presbyterian pastor in North Carolina, and is a homeschool mother, author, and speaker.

      Raised and educated in liberal Catholic settings, Rosaria fell in love with the world of words. In her late twenties, allured by feminist philosophy and LGBT advocacy, she adopted a lesbian identity. Rosaria earned her Ph.D. from Ohio State University, then served in the English department and women studies program at Syracuse University from 1992 to 2002. Her primary academic field was critical theory, specializing in queer theory. Her historical focus was 19th century literature, informed by Freud, Marx, and Darwin. She advised the LGBT student group, wrote Syracuse University’s policy for same-sex couples, and actively lobbied for LGBT aims alongside her lesbian partner.

      In 1997, while Rosaria was researching the Religious Right “and their politics of hatred against people like me,” she wrote an article against the Promise Keepers. A response to that article triggered a meeting with Ken Smith, who became a resource on the Religious Right and their Bible, a confidant, and a friend. In 1999, after repeatedly reading the Bible in large chunks for her research, Rosaria converted to Christianity. Her first book, The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert, details her conversion and the cataclysmic fallout—in which she lost “everything but the dog,” yet gained eternal life in Christ.

      Rosaria’s second book, Openness Unhindered: Further Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert on Sexual Identity and Union with Christ, addresses questions of sin, identity, and repentance that she often encounters during speaking engagements. She discourages usage of the term “gay Christian,” and she disputes “conversion therapy,” in part because heterosexual sin is no more sanctified than homosexual sin. Her heart’s desire is for people to put the hands of the hurting into the hands of the Savior, who equips us to walk and grow in humility.

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    10. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      I haven't come across any testimonials of a homosexual getting saved and living a heterosexual lifestyle, I believe it to be rare if any, to come across at least. Homosexuals are pretty much ahead in PC culture and seem to be culprits and contributors in the war on Christianity here in America.
      If one were to become saved would they have to become straight? Would that be works? or do they continue the gay lifestyle in faith?
      Some arguments insists that homosexual is not recognized as a sin in the bible.

      The video claims that the words used to describe homosexuality in the bible are taken out of context today but they don't offer any solutions other than referring to objecting the sexual pagan rituals of the time.
      Either way we are told to love and not judge, I just can't be around them when they eye me and hit on me, seriously the majority lack in moral when it comes to being respectful and if you tell them anything you are 'homophobic'.
      When I was in school for counseling degree they talked about something called conversion therapy, but most people don't use it because it isn't considered ethical in counseling. I think it is clear that the word the Bible uses does mean homosexual. But, it isn't my job to judge who goes to heaven and who doesn't.

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      Here is an excellent discussion panel of Christians who formerly practiced homosexual sex. It is worth listening to, even though it is 41 minutes in length.

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      One other thing I find quite curious today is that just about anything relating to sex or gender is considered a taboo topic as far as discussion of sin is concerned, although adultery somehow doesn't get the same treatment.

      People talk of gay people as being gentle, kind, loving etc. You'd never find people gathering up a group of self-confessed adulterers and then saying how they were so kind and loving, such good providers, how much charitable work they did etc. Likewise you wouldn't find a church gathering up a coven of witches and looking at all the good they did in the world. Somehow homosexuals get a free pass there.

      There's also an interesting double standard where the more liberal interpretations of Scripture are concerned, on the basis that so many times they present the restrictions on heterosexual activity as being very much current (although some would relax that completely), and yet for homosexuals the only rule is that there are no rules. It often seems that few of the people who would endorse freedom for homosexuals would do the same for heterosexuals.

      It does often seem that sexual orientation and gender identity have somehow become woven into the very fabric of who and what we are, rather than being regarded as one aspect of who we are. Perhaps this is merely one mechanism to try and prevent particular scrutiny because it has become reclassified as attacking the very fabric of who someone is, rather than addressing some aspect of who they are. Using the same approach I wonder whether creating an identity that was inherently grounded in sorcery would have had the more liberal Christians assuring me that I could follow Jesus and not have to give up my occult practises if they were a part of who I was - you know, because Jesus loves me just as I am.

      Jesus never said it would be easy - the whole "take up your cross and follow me" makes it clear that we can't just decide to follow but on our terms, insisting that we'll follow but we'll keep all the parts of life that are really rather convenient to us.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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      Sexual orientation is a man-made creation of Sigmund Freud. It's not biblical. The Bible tells us that we have a Sin orientation and we need to look to Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12). We all struggle with sinful temptations that desperately want us to focus on them while turning our eyes away from Jesus. Galatians 6 tells us to stand with one another to confess our sin orientation and to help point to the one who redeems us from our sin.

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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      I haven't come across any testimonials of a homosexual getting saved and living a heterosexual lifestyle, I believe it to be rare if any, to come across at least. Homosexuals are pretty much ahead in PC culture and seem to be culprits and contributors in the war on Christianity here in America.
      If one were to become saved would they have to become straight? Would that be works? or do they continue the gay lifestyle in faith?
      To 'second' what Imalive said, repentance or conversion means a change of heart, so willfully continuing on in sin cannot be; however, there's no reason that a homosexual person has to engage in heterosexual acts in order to have left his former lifestyle behind. The real issue here arises when and if such a person convinces himself that the Bible doesn't mean what it says (and there are lots of gay organizations that have worked up an alternate meaning for each of the Bible's condemnations of homosexual activity).

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