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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Saul/Paul's Dinner Plate. It includes everything. Even human flesh.

    1. #11
      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      In the war they ate anything, cats, even tulips and shoe soles. I know one guy who'd just pick a dead hedgehog from the road and eat it. That's forbidden btw, blood and suffocated but it isnt suffocated, hmm dunno, disgusting, I'll have a salad.
      Eating a animal free salad is abstaining

      I'm cool with that.

      My questions are for any brave Pauline Christians who actually believe what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 4. Because if they really believe it, I really want to feed them certain things. Even so called "clean" meats. RAW. They can say all the prayers they want...let them eat it RAW like real carnivores and omnivores - with the faithful prayer that it is *sanctified* by the "word of God and prayer" - so that I DON'T have to rush them to the hospital afterwards when they get violently ill!

    2. #12
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    3. #13
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      The reason why I don't practice lent.
      I enjoy being married and eating steak while drinking a good dark stout.
      1 Timothy 4:1-7
      [1]Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.
      [2]These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.
      [3]They will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten with thanks by faithful people who know the truth.
      [4]Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks.
      [5]For we know it is made acceptable by the word of God and prayer.
      [6]If you explain these things to the brothers and sisters, Timothy, you will be a worthy servant of Christ Jesus, one who is nourished by the message of faith and the good teaching you have followed.
      [7]Do not waste time arguing over godless ideas and old wivesí tales. Instead, train yourself to be godly.

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stravinsk View Post
      Eating a animal free salad is abstaining

      I'm cool with that.

      My questions are for any brave Pauline Christians who actually believe what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 4. Because if they really believe it, I really want to feed them certain things. Even so called "clean" meats. RAW. They can say all the prayers they want...let them eat it RAW like real carnivores and omnivores - with the faithful prayer that it is *sanctified* by the "word of God and prayer" - so that I DON'T have to rush them to the hospital afterwards when they get violently ill!
      Nonsense. Raw is with blood and blood is forbidden in Acts. Paul didnt say eat blood.

    5. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stravinsk View Post
      Not kidding. If you don't add numerous QUALIFIERS to it - According to his teaching in 1 Timothy chapter 4, where he talks about "hypocrites" who come in the "latter times" (his time, or our time?) who forbid to marry and abstain from meats.

      According to verses 3, 4, and 5 of 1 Timothy 4:

      - God has created meats to be received with thanksgiving "of them which believe and know the truth"

      - Every creature of God is good and NOTHING to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving.

      - Reason? It's sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

      ----------------
      Those are some core principles that allow for a great variety of flesh, according to Paul. By strict definition, humans are also on the menu for other humans, because we are also "creatures of God" in the sense used in the verse. You can say that's wrong but that is the plain meaning of the language that he is using and to argue that it's wrong you have to add qualifiers not found in the text.

      Of course, someone will argue that we "uphold the law" through faith. Cool, then you have to admit that the above verses by the same author contradict that and have(and will) inevitably be used to justify eating anything they want (like pork and shellfish in the west, for example).

      If someone served you any of these, would you eat them because you actually believed they become sanctified and pure with a few words of prayer and whatever "word of God" Paul refers to (his own, maybe?)

      - Mouse
      - Rat
      - Road kill (mouse, rat, birds, squirrels, cats etc)
      - Vulture
      - snake
      - Dog
      - Cat
      - Human

      Or do you just use this verse *selectively* to justify whatever eating habits are accepted in your culture? Like if you lived in the West, pigs are on the menu but vultures and rats and dogs and cats aren't. Or if you live in India, cows are off the menu but chickens are ok among the non-vegetarians. In China you might find Christians who eat dog and point to this verse.

      Where is this "word of God" that Paul refers to? In Numbers 11 when certain Israelites complained about the manna and that they had no flesh, God was angry but gave it to them, but at the same time He also STRUCK THEM WITH A PLAGUE (Numbers 11:33) for this very reason.

      So I ask again, where is this "word of God" that Paul speaks of? The only thing I can reckon is that he merely refers to his own words. Enjoy mouse, rat, dog, cat, vulture, maggots, and even human flesh, because that's what your apostle teaches with some of the language he uses, like it or not.
      Where is that Word?
      Jesus said what goes inside doesnt make you unclean. He said to Peter: get up slaughter and eat. What God calls clean you may not keep for unholy. That was about the gentiles but its connected and that was the reason for the unclean meats. It was a shadow. In Acts all the apostles said we didnt have to keep the food laws etc., only no fornication no blood no things strangled, no meat offered to idols.

    6. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stravinsk View Post
      Eating a animal free salad is abstaining

      I'm cool with that.

      My questions are for any brave Pauline Christians who actually believe what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 4. Because if they really believe it, I really want to feed them certain things. Even so called "clean" meats. RAW. They can say all the prayers they want...let them eat it RAW like real carnivores and omnivores - with the faithful prayer that it is *sanctified* by the "word of God and prayer" - so that I DON'T have to rush them to the hospital afterwards when they get violently ill!
      You're still missing the point that the freedom to eat something isn't the same as the obligation to eat it. You'll have to show me where Paul says meat should be eaten raw, I'm not seeing it in my Bible.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    7. #17
      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      Nonsense. Raw is with blood and blood is forbidden in Acts. Paul didnt say eat blood.
      Yes I know, I realize I'm getting a little off track here. I'm just asking the flesh eaters to behave like the real omnivores they say they are. You know, the ones with fangs and claws like bears that rip open their meats and eat everything - eyes, hair, sexual organs, anus etc..and eat it raw. Oh no, they aren't about to do that.

      Insofar as blood goes, that's all well and good what you pointed out there. Did you notice that FAT wasn't included though in the Acts passage? Animal fat is also forbidden along with blood.

      But Paul didn't mention that. Is it ok now? If one is a Christian on purely religious grounds listening to him, it's fine. If one leaves aside religion for a moment and just looks at the science and what it does to people's bodies - not so much.


      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      Where is that Word?
      Jesus said what goes inside doesnt make you unclean.
      But sweety - the context here is unwashed hands, not pork or animals at all. Like I mentioned earlier, ceremonial washing before meals is in the Jewish Talmud, that's why they brought it up.

      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      He said to Peter: get up slaughter and eat. What God calls clean you may not keep for unholy. That was about the gentiles but its connected and that was the reason for the unclean meats.
      As for Peter, you are right in that it's only about Cornelius and not the animals at all. Clue as to why Peter is confused about the dream. If it was so clear cut and literal, he wouldn't have been. So it's not teaching the "added on" meaning of "eat whatever animal flesh you want".


      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      It was a shadow. In Acts all the apostles said we didnt have to keep the food laws etc., only no fornication no blood no things strangled, no meat offered to idols.
      Now we're getting to it! I'm going to leave aside the issue of meat sacrificed to idols, which Paul says is fine elsewhere in his writings (you know, the bit about only refraining for another's conscience, not your own), and point you to my list in my OP.

      According to 1 Timothy 4 everything on my list is fine to eat. Nothing is to be refused. Be that cat, dog, mouse, rabbit, snake, vulture, maggots and anything else.
      Including human flesh.

      Because that is implied according to the language used. So would you eat anything on that list and expect not to have some rather immediate problems? A rat carrying disease maybe? Or a vulture? How about moral qualms. One of your friends who died (non strangulation). A relative? For it's all included in the language used by Saul/Paul.
      Last edited by Stravinsk; 12-20-2017 at 06:52 PM. Reason: grammar

    8. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stravinsk View Post
      Yes I know, I realize I'm getting a little off track here. I'm just asking the flesh eaters to behave like the real omnivores they say they are. You know, the ones with fangs and claws like bears that rip open their meats and eat everything - eyes, hair, sexual organs, anus etc..and eat it raw. Oh no, they aren't about to do that.

      Insofar as blood goes, that's all well and good what you pointed out there. Did you notice that FAT wasn't included though in the Acts passage? Animal fat is also forbidden along with blood.

      But Paul didn't mention that. Is it ok now? If one is a Christian on purely religious grounds listening to him, it's fine. If one leaves aside religion for a moment and just looks at the science and what it does to people's bodies - not so much.




      But sweety - the context here is unwashed hands, not pork or animals at all. Like I mentioned earlier, ceremonial washing before meals is in the Jewish Talmud, that's why they brought it up.



      As for Peter, you are right in that it's only about Cornelius and not the animals at all. Clue as to why Peter is confused about the dream. If it was so clear cut and literal, he wouldn't have been. So it's not teaching the "added on" meaning of "eat whatever animal flesh you want".




      Now we're getting to it! I'm going to leave aside the issue of meat sacrificed to idols, which Paul says is fine elsewhere in his writings (you know, the bit about only refraining for another's conscience, not your own), and point you to my list in my OP.

      According to 1 Timothy 4 everything on my list is fine to eat. Nothing is to be refused. Be that cat, dog, mouse, rabbit, snake, vulture, maggots and anything else.
      Including human flesh.

      Because that is implied according to the language used. So would you eat anything on that list and expect not to have some rather immediate problems? A rat carrying disease maybe? Or a vulture? How about moral qualms. One of your friends who died (non strangulation). A relative? For it's all included in the language used by Saul/Paul.
      I think it was too obvious to say that gentiles had to abstain from human flesh. Not only Paul says it. All the apostles said that. Paul only added the idols meat, which is weird, cause in Revelations it's evil. He would become a vegetarian though not to offend a brother. I wonder how many meat eaters would do that.

    9. #19
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      Nonsense. Raw is with blood and blood is forbidden in Acts. Paul didnt say eat blood.
      ...but...but...real presence...
      Indeed, Acts 15 and the Jerusalem council helps make your point.

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    11. #20
      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      ...but...but...real presence...
      Indeed, Acts 15 and the Jerusalem council helps make your point.
      Let's eat, Jesus!

      Let's eat Jesus!



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