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    Ethics & Debate Center - Thread: Communion: Four Views

    1. #1
      Confessional Lutheran's Avatar
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      Communion: Four Views

      So, there are four views to Communion that might deserve debate.

      The Lutheran view holds that " is means is" and that the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are truly present in the bread and the wine of the Sacrament of the Altar.

      The Roman Catholic view is Transubstantiation, where the bread and wine of the Sacrament literally transform into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

      The Reformed/ Presbyterian view is that the bread and wine signify a spiritual presence of Christ in the Sacrament.

      The Baptist view is that the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper is simply an ordinance whereby one remembers the Passion of Jesus Christ with no transformation of any kind occurring with the elements.

      Thoughts?
      Last edited by Confessional Lutheran; 12-10-2017 at 01:50 PM.

    2. #2
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      Reformed people who know their faith probably would take exception to that description. And since I'm apparently the only Anglican here, I'm not concerned at the omission of the Anglican view which, as you say, may not require debate, so carry on with what you had in mind.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Confessional Lutheran View Post
      So, there are four views to Communion that might deserve debate.

      The Lutheran view holds that " is means is" and that the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are truly present in the bread and the wine of the Sacrament of the Altar.

      The Roman Catholic view is Transubstantiation, where the bread and wine of the Sacrament literally transform into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

      The Reformed/ Presbyterian view is that the bread and wine only signify a spiritual presence of Christ in the Sacrament.

      The Baptist view is that the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper is simply an ordinance whereby one remembers the Passion of Jesus Christ with no transformation of any kind occurring with the elements.

      Thoughts?
      If they are present in, they are not it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Reformed people who know their faith probably would take exception to that description. And since I'm apparently the only Anglican here, I'm not concerned at the omission of the Anglican view which, as you say, may not require debate, so carry on with what you had in mind.
      The Anglican view is what exactly??

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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      If they are present in, they are not it.
      Or we could say that they are only part of it, which in turn has to mean that they have been changed in some way.

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      Why don't we just state the 5 or 6 major views?

      Roman Catholic--Transubstantiation. The substance of the Bread and Wine is changed over, completely, into Christ's physical and spiritual body and blood at the pronunciation of the words of institution by the priest. The "accidents" (taste, appearance, etc.) remain, however.

      Orthodox Eastern--Transubstantiation but without any of the mechanics or technicalities being explained. It's just been changed over in a way we cannot comprehend. They will affirm the RC view, generally speaking, but dislike using the word Transubstantiation.

      Lutheran--Consubstantiation (as it is usually called by everyone but Lutherans). The b&w remain but are infused (with, in, under, etc.) with the same physical presence that RCs believe occurs.

      Anglican--We receive the true body and blood of Christ in the elements but it's a presence only in a heavenly and spiritual manner. There is a change, but it cannot be understood or explained in a scientific way, and it's certainly not physical, carnal, etc. Methodists also believe this, officially, being an offshoot of Anglicanism.

      Reformed (and Presbyterian)--Also maintain that they believe in the Real Presence like all of the above, but hold that WE are mystically transported to heaven to be in
      the Lord's Presence at the moment of communing. IOW, the b&w themselves do not change.

      Baptistic (and Anabaptist, Evangelical, most other Protestants)--it's a memorial, and the elements (b&w) do not change. But they do represent the body and blood and the Lord's sacrifice, and it's also a fellowship act.



      .
      Last edited by Albion; 12-10-2017 at 02:17 PM.

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      That bread was first the bread that their fathers ate. Noone thought it literally or spiritually or whatever turned into that bread that was eaten thousands of years earlier.

      In time, Yeshua would hold this same Passover matzo up and say to his followers, not “This is the bread of affliction our fathers ate in Egypt”, but “This is my body, broken for you. Do this in remembrance of me”.

      https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.onef...d-in-the-bible

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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Why don't we just state the 5 or 6 major views?

      Roman Catholic--Transubstantiation. The substance of the Bread and Wine is changed over, completely, into Christ's physical and spiritual body and blood at the pronunciation of the words of institution by the priest. The "accidents" (taste, appearance, etc.) remain, however.

      Orthodox Eastern--Transubstantiation but without any of the mechanics or technicalities being explained. It's just been changed over in a way we cannot comprehend. They will affirm the RC view, generally speaking, but dislike using the word Transubstantiation.

      Lutheran--Consubstantiation (as it is usually called by everyone but Lutherans). The b&w remain but are infused (with, in, under, etc.) with the same physical presence that RCs believe occurs.

      Anglican--We receive the true body and blood of Christ in the elements but it's a presence only in a heavenly and spiritual manner. There is a change, but it cannot be understood or explained in a scientific way, and it's certainly not physical, carnal, etc. Methodists also believe this, officially, being an offshoot of Anglicanism.

      Reformed (and Presbyterian)--Also maintain that they believe in the Real Presence like all of the above, but hold that WE are mystically transported to heaven to be in
      the Lord's Presence at the moment of communing. IOW, the b&w themselves do not change.

      Baptistic (and Anabaptist, Evangelical, most other Protestants)--it's a memorial, and the elements (b&w) do not change. But they do represent the body and blood and the Lord's sacrifice, and it's also a fellowship act.



      .
      and the best one of course:

      During the course of the seder meal, the master of the table lifts the unleavened bread and declares, “This is the bread of affliction.” Later, he says the blessing for bread, breaks it, and distributes it to everyone at the table.

      Jesus made the blessing for bread: “Blessed are you, LORD our God, king of the universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.” He may have added the additional blessing for the festival, “… who has sanctified us with his commandments and has commanded us about eating matzah.” Then he broke the bread of affliction, ate some, and distributed it among his disciples, telling them, “Take, eat; this is my body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

      He instructed his disciples to henceforth eat the unleavened bread of Passover in remembrance of him. With those words, he invested the Passover ritual with new, additional significance. Previously, the disciples of Jesus ate the unleavened bread at Passover in remembrance of the Exodus from Egypt. The Torah explicitly says that Passover “will be a memorial (zikkaron) to you” (Exodus 12:14).

      Christian tradition has embellished the ritual, but the original context indicates a simple, Passover rite common to every Jewish home, albeit, augmented with additional symbolic associations. By declaring the unleavened bread as a symbol for his body, the Master invited the disciples to henceforth remember Passover as the occasion of his suffering and sacrifice. As Paul says, “For as often as you eat this bread … you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes” (1 Corinthians 11:26).

      http://www.bethimmanuel.org/articles...ng-last-supper

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    14. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Why don't we just state the 5 or 6 major views?

      Roman Catholic--Transubstantiation. The substance of the Bread and Wine is changed over, completely, into Christ's physical and spiritual body and blood at the pronunciation of the words of institution by the priest. The "accidents" (taste, appearance, etc.) remain, however.

      Orthodox Eastern--Transubstantiation but without any of the mechanics or technicalities being explained. It's just been changed over in a way we cannot comprehend. They will affirm the RC view, generally speaking, but dislike using the word Transubstantiation.

      Lutheran--Consubstantiation (as it is usually called by everyone but Lutherans). The b&w remain but are infused (with, in, under, etc.) with the same physical presence that RCs believe occurs.

      Anglican--We receive the true body and blood of Christ in the elements but it's a presence only in a heavenly and spiritual manner. There is a change, but it cannot be understood or explained in a scientific way, and it's certainly not physical, carnal, etc. Methodists also believe this, officially, being an offshoot of Anglicanism.

      Reformed (and Presbyterian)--Also maintain that they believe in the Real Presence like all of the above, but hold that WE are mystically transported to heaven to be in
      the Lord's Presence at the moment of communing. IOW, the b&w themselves do not change.

      Baptistic (and Anabaptist, Evangelical, most other Protestants)--it's a memorial, and the elements (b&w) do not change. But they do represent the body and blood and the Lord's sacrifice, and it's also a fellowship act.



      .
      That's perfect! Thank you. I wasn't aware of the last couple of views. Thanks for the correction on how the Reformed view the Lord's Supper, as well.

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      " Consubstantiation" is rejected as a term we use to describe the Real Presence because it tries to put a mechanical explanation as to " how" we receive the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion. We prefer the term " Sacramental Union" because it simply states that Jesus Christ is there, body and blood, sacramentally, in, with and under the Bread and the Wine and so we receive Him. It's the power of God that makes Jesus Present in the Sacrament, we know not how. There are mysteries that we are simply not meant to comprehend.

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