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    Results 31 to 40 of 48

    Christian Theology - Thread: Luther and the Jews

    1. #31
      DHoffmann's Avatar
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      Right? And not just against the Jew but he also pronounced some deranged statements against the catholic church.

      "The Pope and the Cardinals . . . since they are blasphemers, their tongues ought to be torn out through the back of their necks, and nailed to the gallows!" (Against the Papacy of Rome, Founded by the Devil)*

      "It were better that every bishop were murdered . . . And we would smile did it happen. All who contribute body, goods . . . that the rule of the bishops may be destroyed are God's dear children and true Christians." (Werke, Weimar, v.28, pp.142-201 Against the Falsely Called Spiritual Order of the Pope and the Bishops)

      "...these Cardinals, these Popes, and that whole abomination of the Romish Sodom . . . why do we not wash our hands in their blood?" (Werke, Erl., v.2, p.107 On the Pope as an Infallible Teacher).

      I understand Paul converting after the fact but I'm a bit on the bench seeing how he profoundly wishes against the command "thou shall not kill"... I always thought protestants held highly to that in which gave them so much nobility and credit?

      Still yet to hear (read) the response to the latter as I see the former (Jew hatred) has been rejected as "those were days" and "we do not follow those teachings even though the Jew was blasphemous against our Lord Jesus Christ"...

      No hard feelings here just want an answer

      (A simple statement is all I wish to hear since I found nothing elsewhere, not condemning the faith just seeking the official unofficial response) ... Dont word hurt me please lol stay in cheer mode, simple silly question is all
      Last edited by DHoffmann; 01-06-2018 at 06:29 AM.

    2. #32
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      Two points can be raised here.

      1. Are the “quotes” from Luther’s writings one sees quoted elsewhere on the internet – sickening quotes, including one expressing his potential mutilation of his wife – actually true?

      If so, that says much about the man and his attitudes.

      2. Were his tirades balanced? That is, were they aimed evenly at all non-Christian groups, including Muslims? Or was there a concentration on a particular religio-ethnic group – “the Jews”? Did Luther advocate the burning down of Muslim houses, for instance?


      If the answer to question 1 is Yes, and the answer to question 2 is No, then much of what has been presented in support of Martin Luther can be seen to be one-sided. (Another word for that is dishonest.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      There are few religions in the world that have an almost exclusive bi-directional bond with ethnicity. Judaism is one of them.

      An attack on the Jewish religion is an attack on the people practising it. Burning their houses as promoted by Martin Luther is more than just a pertinent example; it constitutes a direct attack. On specific people.

      The fact that Lutheran churches, leaders and people don’t advocate the same actions as Martin Luther did, points to one of two things:
      1. Lutheranism totally repudiates Martin Luther’s words and attitudes with respect to Jews; OR
      2. Lutheranism still harbours veiled antipathy towards Jews. (Possibly evidenced by a form of “Replacement Theology”, denying the indelibly recorded promises of God to that nation).

      Pedrito asks: which of the two is true?
      Lutherans don't "follow" Luther. Luthers words aren't our dogma. That should answer both of your questions.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    3. #33
      Josiah's Avatar
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      The 16th century was not the 21st. The extreme, uber - PC'ism that reigns today was just not the case 500 years ago. And it's good to keep that in mind. We should not evaluate historic figures AS IF they lived in our country and in our time.

      It was true then that people often wrote in strong polemics, in language that to those raised on Mr. Rodgers and in a world of extreme Political Correctness, well.... can seem shocking. But it's just how people in Europe spoke and wrote 500 years ago. And remember, NO ONE in all this realized that what they said would be reported and put into books and be read 500 years later in cultures VERY different than their own. The press, the printing press, books... they were all very new. Luther CLEARLY was unaware most of the time that what he said was being written down and certainly it never crossed his mind that it would be published and read for centuries. Occasionally (it's not often), people wrote FORMAL letters which they intended to be public - and we see that even then, people would be very careful about the wording and rather gracious in their expressions. But since that was very rare, that's not what we tend to read today. It's important that historical people and events and documents be seen in context of their time and culture.

      As Lamm pointed out above, Lutherans do not follow Luther and what Luther said has little to no relevance to Lutherans. He is seen as a very learned scholar (especially in the biblical languages of Hebrew and Greek) and a well loved parish pastor - but he was a mere mortal and CLEARLY a sinful one at that. A bloat who put on his pants one leg at a time. A man who could be right.... and could be wrong, just like very one I know (with the exception of Jesus). I've read some things he (supposedly) said - and I'm shocked and dismayed. But then I've probably said some stupid stuff too, lol. He was just a man.... a sinful man...... he was and is the Authority for nothing. Lutherans look to Scripture (and UNDER THAT the Ecumenical Creeds and Councils and UNDER THAT the Confessions) - not to Luther. It's what Luther insisted that we do, by the way.


      Back to the issue....



      - Josiah

    4. #34
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      I sense that Pedrito is not going to get an answer. To say that "well, it was just the way things were 500 years ago, and, besides, who woulda' known we'd be reading this today anyway" surely doesn't address it. I think Pedrito's questions spoke directly to the issue that the OP would like to get back to. To say whom a person does or does not follow would be fine for the erstwhile corner preacher with a flock of 50, perhaps, but for the founder of the Reformation - well...
      "Let us ask the Lord for a strong faith to see with his eyes the reality of family life, and for a deep love to approach all families with his merciful heart." - Pope Francis

    5. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      Two points can be raised here.

      1. Are the “quotes” from Luther’s writings one sees quoted elsewhere on the internet – sickening quotes, including one expressing his potential mutilation of his wife – actually true?

      If so, that says much about the man and his attitudes.

      2. Were his tirades balanced? That is, were they aimed evenly at all non-Christian groups, including Muslims? Or was there a concentration on a particular religio-ethnic group – “the Jews”? Did Luther advocate the burning down of Muslim houses, for instance?


      If the answer to question 1 is Yes, and the answer to question 2 is No, then much of what has been presented in support of Martin Luther can be seen to be one-sided. (Another word for that is dishonest.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      There are few religions in the world that have an almost exclusive bi-directional bond with ethnicity. Judaism is one of them.

      An attack on the Jewish religion is an attack on the people practising it. Burning their houses as promoted by Martin Luther is more than just a pertinent example; it constitutes a direct attack. On specific people.

      The fact that Lutheran churches, leaders and people don’t advocate the same actions as Martin Luther did, points to one of two things:
      1. Lutheranism totally repudiates Martin Luther’s words and attitudes with respect to Jews; OR
      2. Lutheranism still harbours veiled antipathy towards Jews. (Possibly evidenced by a form of “Replacement Theology”, denying the indelibly recorded promises of God to that nation).

      Pedrito asks: which of the two is true?
      https://www.charismanews.com/opinion...ological-error

      https://www.charismamag.com/life/cul...-soul-is-saved

    6. #36
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryDay2 View Post
      I sense that Pedrito is not going to get an answer. To say that "well, it was just the way things were 500 years ago, and, besides, who woulda' known we'd be reading this today anyway" surely doesn't address it. I think Pedrito's questions spoke directly to the issue that the OP would like to get back to. To say whom a person does or does not follow would be fine for the erstwhile corner preacher with a flock of 50, perhaps, but for the founder of the Reformation - well...
      Luther needs to be read in the following ways...

      to whom was Luther addressing?
      in what period was Luther writing?
      at what age in his life was Luther writing?

      You see, Luther changed his views on things throughout his life. We need to look at the history and culture to correctly view some things. But we also have to look at the man and what stage of his life he wrote things. Toward the end of his life he was not very well and when people don't feel well they lash out at everything and everyone.

      It has been stated here already in the thread that Lutherans don't follow Luther. So in our regard to Jews, unless they trust in the Lord Jesus the Christ as their Savior then they are unsaved...nonbelievers and damning themselves to hell just as any other individual who has no faith in the Savior who is Jesus or Yeshua whichever name you feel like using.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

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    8. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Luther needs to be read in the following ways...

      to whom was Luther addressing?
      in what period was Luther writing?
      at what age in his life was Luther writing?

      You see, Luther changed his views on things throughout his life. We need to look at the history and culture to correctly view some things. But we also have to look at the man and what stage of his life he wrote things. Toward the end of his life he was not very well and when people don't feel well they lash out at everything and everyone.

      It has been stated here already in the thread that Lutherans don't follow Luther. So in our regard to Jews, unless they trust in the Lord Jesus the Christ as their Savior then they are unsaved...nonbelievers and damning themselves to hell just as any other individual who has no faith in the Savior who is Jesus or Yeshua whichever name you feel like using.
      At least Lutherans distance themselves of things he said. I've seen ppl in evangelical churches who have no clue what he even said and treat him and Calvin like fantastic big faith hero's.

    9. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      At least Lutherans distance themselves of things he said. I've seen ppl in evangelical churches who have no clue what he even said and treat him and Calvin like fantastic big faith hero's.
      Luther and Calvin both said some amazing things that point to the Savior. But they were just men like the rest of us (men meaning mankind) in that none of us are perfect and none of us have our faith perfected yet. Don't look to the Christians for faith. Look to the Savior.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

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    11. #39
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      Pedrito in Post #21 30:
      An attack on the Jewish religion is an attack on the people practising it. Burning their houses as promoted by Martin Luther is more than just a pertinent example; it constitutes a direct attack. On specific people.

      The fact that Lutheran churches, leaders and people don’t advocate the same actions as Martin Luther did, points to one of two things:
      1. Lutheranism totally repudiates Martin Luther’s words and attitudes with respect to Jews; OR
      2. Lutheranism still harbours veiled antipathy towards Jews. (Possibly evidenced by a form of “Replacement Theology”, denying the indelibly recorded promises of God to that nation).

      Pedrito asks: which of the two is true?
      The response in Post #32 was:
      Lutherans don't "follow" Luther. Luthers words aren't our dogma. That should answer both of your questions.
      Which obviously it did not.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Pedrito has warned about the technique of deflection before – steering attention away from “dangerous” questions and statements because the truths they represent are considered unsavoury – and here we have another clear example.

      So clear is that deflection, that the Poster of Post #34 offered:
      I sense that Pedrito is not going to get an answer...
      So, to address the issue even more head on, Pedrito will expand the two former either-or questions into three specific questions, requesting a definitive “Yes” or “No” to each. The first two pertain to Martin Luther’s overt hatred of Jews and the sickening language he used to express the depth of that hatred.

      Remember, Yes or No.

      1. Does the Lutheran Church totally and publicly repudiate Martin Luther’s words and attitudes with respect to Jews?
      2. Does the Lutheran Church still harbour antipathy towards Jews in any overt (directly stated) or covert (veiled) form?
      3. Does the Lutheran Church teach that Israel as a nation has no place in God’s revealed future for Mankind (as indirectly stated in Post #36)?

      Who would like to prove the Poster of Post #34 wrong by issuing direct, truthful answers to the above three questions?
      Last edited by Pedrito; 01-30-2018 at 05:07 AM. Reason: Correct Post # referenced
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    12. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Lutherans don't "follow" Luther. Luthers words aren't our dogma. That should answer both of your questions.
      Who wrote the Concord...

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