• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
    Results 11 to 20 of 48

    Christian Theology - Thread: Luther and the Jews

    1. #11
      DHoffmann's Avatar
      DHoffmann is offline Veteran Member
      33
      Mood:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2017
      Posts
      1,741
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      8,553
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      7,879
      Level
      26
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      94.9%
      Rep Power
      233
      This series "Gunpowder" depicts protestants lynching Catholics, and then I ran across this article on what Luther had said about the bishops "we should wash our hands in their blood"
      http://arthurandteresabeem.blogspot....tants.html?m=1
      Such a bloody history on both sides, thank God it's over (in the body)

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
      Last edited by DHoffmann; 12-27-2017 at 10:14 PM.

    2. #12
      ImaginaryDay2's Avatar
      ImaginaryDay2 is offline Expert Member
      Supporting Member
      49
      O Lord, You keep safe both man
      and animal.
       
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,708
      Country
      Canada
      CH Cash
      217,620
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (5,693 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      17,020
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      25.22%
      Rep Power
      473
      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Anyone who rejects the Savior has damned himself...even if he is a Jew.
      Damned himself to what? According to Luther, see post #3.

      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      We are all saved in the same way, by grace through faith in the Savior who has come and He is Jesus the Christ. I have Jewish friends say that they're still waiting for the Savior and they reject that Jesus is the one. I do have some Messianic Jewish friends who trust in the Savior for their salvation.
      Is it acceptable that they are "Messianic Jews"? I also had a friend who was, but he never disavowed being a Jew (cultural and spiritual).
      I can't stop the world from turning around, or the pull of the moon on the tide...
      But I don't believe that we're in this alone, I believe we're along for the ride..
      - Dream Theater

    3. #13
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is offline God's Lil Lamb
      Administrator
      Supporting Member
      Community Team
      Married
      Gloria In Excelsis Deo
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      15,068
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      195,994
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (115,913 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      184,279
      Level
      90
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      60.06%
      Rep Power
      785
      Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryDay2 View Post
      Damned himself to what? According to Luther, see post #3.



      Is it acceptable that they are "Messianic Jews"? I also had a friend who was, but he never disavowed being a Jew (cultural and spiritual).
      You indicated I should see your quoted post about what Luther said in post #3...could you pinpoint what you want me to read since it's a long post? Thank you.

      I had written that anyone who rejects the Savior damns himself. You asked "damned himself to what?" All damnation is to hell, is it not? I cannot damn another man to hell. He damns himself by rejecting the Savior and forgiveness of sins won at the cross.

      Messianic Jews believe in the Savior. It is by grace through faith that any of us are saved. It's not the "Jew" part that saves anyone...it will always be "by grace through faith". So any Jewish person who rejects the Savior damns himself.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    4. Likes Josiah liked this post
    5. #14
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,109
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      117,675
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      62,104
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      0.8%
      Rep Power
      861
      Luther rebuked ALL who rejected Christ as the Savior. It made NO difference what race they were or were not, it made NO difference which Christ-rejecting religion they embraced in lieu of Christianity. The point was: To reject Christ is a bad thing and results in their not being heaven-bound, not being forgiven.

      A "Messianic Jew" (if I understand correctly) is one who embraces Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, the Savior. I don't know if that label existed in 16th Century Germany, but if that one accepted Jesus as the Christ, the Savior, the Son of God then in Luther's view such would be FULLY Christian, FULLY and EQUALLY his brother in Christ, FULLY and EQUALLY a part of Christ's Church and Body - regardless of his race, ethnicity, color, age, gender, nationality, education, intelligence, social or economic class (including a poor Hebrew woman). What Luther repudiated was rejecting Christ - whether such was done by a Jew or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or Atheist or whatever. What Luther celebrated was any who had faith in Christ as the Savior - whether such be German, Hebrew, French, Danish, Italian, Gypsy, English... male or female.... young or old.... white or black.... smart or dumb. It had nothing to do with RACE (as Hitler's Anti-Semitism) but with FAITH.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    6. #15
      ImaginaryDay2's Avatar
      ImaginaryDay2 is offline Expert Member
      Supporting Member
      49
      O Lord, You keep safe both man
      and animal.
       
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,708
      Country
      Canada
      CH Cash
      217,620
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (5,693 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      17,020
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      25.22%
      Rep Power
      473
      I realize that it was a long post, but Luther apparently had something in mind for the Jews of his time in this life as well as damnation to hell. It was an interesting read, along with the OP. I understand that such sentiment must be taken with a cultural grain of salt - such was the sentiment of his time, and not now - but it is enlightening to get the perspective opposite the OP. The OP was long as well, but I read it. I noticed, though, that the OP gave no context as to what view it was trying to argue (i.e. in terms of debate, not 'argument') against. Post #3 cleared that up.

      As to the 'Messianic Jew" question, they do believe in the Savior - but do any of your friends disavow their Jewish heritage in the process? My friend never did. He wore a 'Star of David' necklace until he died, and I don't recall anyone ever telling him to take it off. It held cultural and spiritual significance for him as a Messianic Jew. I'll begin another thread on this later, so no need to answer at length.
      I can't stop the world from turning around, or the pull of the moon on the tide...
      But I don't believe that we're in this alone, I believe we're along for the ride..
      - Dream Theater

    7. #16
      ImaginaryDay2's Avatar
      ImaginaryDay2 is offline Expert Member
      Supporting Member
      49
      O Lord, You keep safe both man
      and animal.
       
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,708
      Country
      Canada
      CH Cash
      217,620
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (5,693 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      17,020
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      25.22%
      Rep Power
      473
      nm
      Last edited by ImaginaryDay2; 12-28-2017 at 02:11 PM.
      I can't stop the world from turning around, or the pull of the moon on the tide...
      But I don't believe that we're in this alone, I believe we're along for the ride..
      - Dream Theater

    8. #17
      ImaginaryDay2's Avatar
      ImaginaryDay2 is offline Expert Member
      Supporting Member
      49
      O Lord, You keep safe both man
      and animal.
       
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,708
      Country
      Canada
      CH Cash
      217,620
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (5,693 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      17,020
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      25.22%
      Rep Power
      473
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      Luther rebuked ALL who rejected Christ as the Savior. It made NO difference what race they were or were not, it made NO difference which Christ-rejecting religion they embraced in lieu of Christianity. The point was: To reject Christ is a bad thing and results in their not being heaven-bound, not being forgiven.
      That's understood. During his time, it appears he had some strong opinions on what should happen with those who rejected Him. The Anabaptists also suffered at the hands of Luther's faithful, so it wasn't just the Jews. In the context of his culture, 'rebuke' is a rather soft word.

      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      A "Messianic Jew" (if I understand correctly) is one who embraces Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, the Savior. I don't know if that label existed in 16th Century Germany, but if that one accepted Jesus as the Christ, the Savior, the Son of God then in Luther's view such would be FULLY Christian, FULLY and EQUALLY his brother in Christ, FULLY and EQUALLY a part of Christ's Church and Body - regardless of his race, ethnicity, color, age, gender, nationality, education, intelligence, social or economic class (including a poor Hebrew woman). What Luther repudiated was rejecting Christ - whether such was done by a Jew or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or Atheist or whatever. What Luther celebrated was any who had faith in Christ as the Savior - whether such be German, Hebrew, French, Danish, Italian, Gypsy, English... male or female.... young or old.... white or black.... smart or dumb. It had nothing to do with RACE (as Hitler's Anti-Semitism) but with FAITH.
      The label? Probably not. I've not studied enough on some of the different significance that some Messianic Jews may place on their faith in Christ. However, that is the common factor, and (I'm sure) - behind the fiery rhetoric - what Luther would have wanted.
      Last edited by ImaginaryDay2; 12-28-2017 at 02:12 PM.
      I can't stop the world from turning around, or the pull of the moon on the tide...
      But I don't believe that we're in this alone, I believe we're along for the ride..
      - Dream Theater

    9. #18
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is offline God's Lil Lamb
      Administrator
      Supporting Member
      Community Team
      Married
      Gloria In Excelsis Deo
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      15,068
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      195,994
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (115,913 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      184,279
      Level
      90
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      60.06%
      Rep Power
      785
      Messianic Jews as a religion is relatively new. Historically there have been conversions but as a religion with that label it is new (like in the past hundred years or so).
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    10. #19
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      3,492
      CH Cash
      14,749
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      14,436
      Level
      34
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      79.55%
      Rep Power
      376
      It should be noted that the Israel of God is not bound by culture. The Israel of God is Chinese, Polish, Malaysian, Jewish, Palestinian, American, Columbian, etc. These are the chosen people of God. These are the Israel of the promise and the new covenant. Saying someone is a messianic Jew is no different than saying someone is a messianic Italian. Both know Yeshua as their Messiah and King.

    11. #20
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is offline God's Lil Lamb
      Administrator
      Supporting Member
      Community Team
      Married
      Gloria In Excelsis Deo
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      15,068
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      195,994
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (115,913 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      184,279
      Level
      90
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      60.06%
      Rep Power
      785
      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      It should be noted that the Israel of God is not bound by culture. The Israel of God is Chinese, Polish, Malaysian, Jewish, Palestinian, American, Columbian, etc. These are the chosen people of God. These are the Israel of the promise and the new covenant. Saying someone is a messianic Jew is no different than saying someone is a messianic Italian. Both know Yeshua as their Messiah and King.
      Messianic Judaism is not a race but a religion or denomination. The term is somewhat new...1920s I think it began and then had a revival in the 60s? I can't remember and I just finished reading about it (d'oh).
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •