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    Christian Theology - Thread: Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

    1. #21
      Snerfle is offline Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      So going by the above definitions, it appears that the Lutheran position supports osas, then, yes no?
      Or are the saved 100% saved by God, but He is unable to keep that which He saved?

      The opposition to osas kind of reminds me of a Seinfeld episode, where he made a reservation to rent a car at an airport.

      When he got there, there was no car.
      He stated, 'But I made a reservation'.

      They replied, 'We know, we took the reservation, we know how to take reservations'.
      Seinfeld says, 'You dont seem to know the purpose of taking a reservation'.

      Airport: We know the purpose.
      Seinfeld: Obviously you dont...if you did...I'd have a car!
      You might know how to TAKE reservation,
      but you dont seem to know how to HOLD one.
      And THAT really is the purpose for taking one, isnt it? It's the holding!
      Anybody can just TAKE em. (willy-nilly, lol)
      But its the HOOLLLDDING that really is key, isn't it?

      It seems similar here. Some ppl know how to SAY God saved them (although some dont, it seems, so maybe they're not, but we can't assume that)
      But they dont seem to BELIEVE God saved them...
      They dont seem to trust that God will KEEP them (HOLD the reservation)

      once saved ... maybe?... but not ALWAYS saved? ... maybe?
      Ignored?
      ~Deliberate ignorance
      is anti-christian~

    2. #22
      Josiah's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard

      Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
      Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.


      CALVINISM:
      Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
      Weakness: Denies Fact #1.


      ARMINIANISM:
      Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
      Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.


      LUTHERAN :
      God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
      Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
      The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
      (The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").



      .


      So going by the above definitions, it appears that the Lutheran position supports osas, then, yes no?

      No (but you are off topic; this thread is not about the uber-Calvinist theory of OSAS).


      Lutherans hold that OSAS is yet another new Calvinist theory that confuses Law and Gospel and tries to impose a certain human "logic" on God that ends up conflicting with Scripture and creating a horror. But again, off topic for this thread. IF you want to discuss this new Calvinist theory, I'd suggest starting a thread on that (but beware: Calvinist themselves have MUCH disagreement on this, indeed there are countless different versions of OSAS among them; but its a different discussion for a different thread).


      Atpollard did a reasonably good job of sharing the problems with both new theories - both Arminianism and Calvinism. As well as a reasonable job of relating the Lutheran (and traditional, orthodox) view. I'd point all to the YouTube referenced in the opening post.

      The issue here is the "cross of theology" of "Why are some saved and not others?" It's not the post-Calvin invention of OSAS. I note they aren't the same discussion in Calvinism either (being different parts of TULIP)
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    3. #23
      Imalive's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      Ignored?
      snored

    4. #24
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
      Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

      CALVINISM:
      Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
      Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

      ARMINIANISM:
      Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
      Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

      LUTHERAN SOLUTION:
      God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
      Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
      The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
      (The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").
      Thanks for the pithy summary. I thought it would be possible to supply one. Thanks for doing the work.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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    6. #25
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      It is a bit complex, I agree, but what you've said here is definitely not the case. Lutherans essentially say that we are lost without Christ but if given the gift of faith can still lose salvation.
      Does God take His gift back?
      If God saves us by grace alone, does He not keep us by grace alone...or can we abuse God's grace so that are abuse is greater than his grace? (See Romans 6)
      What you share is a semi-pelagian position. A synergistic position.

    7. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Does God take His gift back?
      If God saves us by grace alone, does He not keep us by grace alone...or can we abuse God's grace so that are abuse is greater than his grace? (See Romans 6)
      What you [Albion] share is a semi-pelagian position. A synergistic position.
      Okay, everything is semi-pelagianism ... Now what?
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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    9. #27
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      nm
      Last edited by Imalive; 12-02-2017 at 05:38 PM.

    10. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Okay, everything is semi-pelagianism ... Now what?
      Not everything is semi-pelagian. Churches like Nazarene, Church of Christ, most Pentacostal churches and Wesleyan are straight-up pelagian.
      Most Baptist, Lutheran and Roman churches as well as independent/free church are semi-pelagian. Both groups are synergistic in that they teach salvation by God's grace through human faith and effort.

    11. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Not everything is semi-pelagian. Churches like Nazarene, Church of Christ, most Pentacostal churches and Wesleyan are straight-up pelagian.
      Most Baptist, Lutheran and Roman churches as well as independent/free church are semi-pelagian. Both groups are synergistic in that they teach salvation by God's grace through human faith and effort.
      Okay, now what?
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    12. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Okay, now what?
      You tell me. You're the one running down another bunny trail...

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