• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 25 of 29 FirstFirst ... 152324252627 ... LastLast
    Results 241 to 250 of 284

    Christian Theology - Thread: Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

    1. #241
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is online now Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,909
      Country
      United States
      CH Challenge
      270
      CH Cash
      117,993
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      71,380
      Level
      65
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      26.99%
      Rep Power
      916
      Quote Originally Posted by meluckycharms View Post
      Agreed. After going to seminary I soon realized that theology has a lot of grey.

      Lutherans tend to regard such as Mystery. And it's okay to have tensions (indeed, Lutherans tend to look at much of Scripture and theology as Law or Gospel) and certainly to have unanswered questions. MUCH heresy is based on some individual person (and perhaps denomination) designating self (exclusively) as "The Answer Man" whose divine mandate is to make God make sense, to connect the dots, to fix what God revealed so that it's as smart as that self insists that self is. IMO, it's important to let God be God, let God have the "last word," admit God very likely knows more about the divine than any of us (God may even be smarter than any of us!!). As my Greek Orthodox friend laments about much of Western Christianity, "Christians lost their ability to shut up." I (a Western Christian, lol) largely agree. Protestantism was born (in part) as a protest to the subjecting of Scripture to the brain, the theories, the philosophies, the prescience understandings, the conjectures of man (and of single denominations), getting back to the words of Scripture allowing questions to be questions. But as often happens in such movements, rather quickly, some Protestants insisted on doing EXACTLY what they rebuked the RCC for doing (only at times worse).

      I don't think the primary purpose of Christians is to cognatively "get it" and certainly not to correct God so that He jibes with our current sense of reality, our current philosophies and psychologies. I think our "job" is the trust and obey, to have faith and show love: we are called to faith and to ministry. I confess to being a theology junkie (big time).... and since my conversion to Lutheranism a few years ago (I'm a former Catholic), I'm increasingly positive about the Lutheran "take" on things. But I also realize that God is bigger than me, indeed bigger than ALL Christians (now and throughout time) together. Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology." I think God may laugh at some of our "takes"..... until it clearly contradicts what He Himself revealed to us in Scripture, when it flows from our supreme egoism in insisting self knows more than God, when it denies His essence (love): then I don't think God laughs.

      I have a Ph.D. One of the most important things I learned - early on - is that at times the wisest, smartest thing one can say is "I don't know." Indeed, we CANNOT learn, we cannot grow, we cannot discover and correct error unless we begin with that confession. What I'm suggesting is not relativism but humility.



      - Josiah

    2. Likes meluckycharms liked this post
    3. #242
      MennoSota is online now Expert Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      4,308
      CH Challenge
      232
      CH Cash
      18,137
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      16,959
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      19.78%
      Rep Power
      427
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      Lutherans tend to regard such as Mystery. And it's okay to have tensions (indeed, Lutherans tend to look at much of Scripture and theology as Law or Gospel) and certainly to have unanswered questions. MUCH heresy is based on some individual person (and perhaps denomination) designating self (exclusively) as "The Answer Man" whose divine mandate is to make God make sense, to connect the dots, to fix what God revealed so that it's as smart as that self insists that self is. IMO, it's important to let God be God, let God have the "last word," admit God very likely knows more about the divine than any of us (God may even be smarter than any of us!!). As my Greek Orthodox friend laments about much of Western Christianity, "Christians lost their ability to shut up." I (a Western Christian, lol) largely agree. Protestantism was born (in part) as a protest to the subjecting of Scripture to the brain, the theories, the philosophies, the prescience understandings, the conjectures of man (and of single denominations), getting back to the words of Scripture allowing questions to be questions. But as often happens in such movements, rather quickly, some Protestants insisted on doing EXACTLY what they rebuked the RCC for doing (only at times worse).

      I don't think the primary purpose of Christians is to cognatively "get it" and certainly not to correct God so that He jibes with our current sense of reality, our current philosophies and psychologies. I think our "job" is the trust and obey, to have faith and show love: we are called to faith and to ministry. I confess to being a theology junkie (big time).... and since my conversion to Lutheranism a few years ago (I'm a former Catholic), I'm increasingly positive about the Lutheran "take" on things. But I also realize that God is bigger than me, indeed bigger than ALL Christians (now and throughout time) together. Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology." I think God may laugh at some of our "takes"..... until it clearly contradicts what He Himself revealed to us in Scripture, when it flows from our supreme egoism in insisting self knows more than God, when it denies His essence (love): then I don't think God laughs.

      I have a Ph.D. One of the most important things I learned - early on - is that at times the wisest, smartest thing one can say is "I don't know." Indeed, we CANNOT learn, we cannot grow, we cannot discover and correct error unless we begin with that confession. What I'm suggesting is not relativism but humility.



      - Josiah
      Lutherans tend to be surface dwellers...

    4. Likes meluckycharms liked this post
    5. #243
      Imalive's Avatar
      Imalive is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2017
      Posts
      2,315
      Country
      Netherlands
      CH Challenge
      0
      CH Cash
      497,906
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,579
      Level
      30
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      53.99%
      Rep Power
      268
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      Lutherans tend to regard such as Mystery. And it's okay to have tensions (indeed, Lutherans tend to look at much of Scripture and theology as Law or Gospel) and certainly to have unanswered questions. MUCH heresy is based on some individual person (and perhaps denomination) designating self (exclusively) as "The Answer Man" whose divine mandate is to make God make sense, to connect the dots, to fix what God revealed so that it's as smart as that self insists that self is. IMO, it's important to let God be God, let God have the "last word," admit God very likely knows more about the divine than any of us (God may even be smarter than any of us!!). As my Greek Orthodox friend laments about much of Western Christianity, "Christians lost their ability to shut up." I (a Western Christian, lol) largely agree. Protestantism was born (in part) as a protest to the subjecting of Scripture to the brain, the theories, the philosophies, the prescience understandings, the conjectures of man (and of single denominations), getting back to the words of Scripture allowing questions to be questions. But as often happens in such movements, rather quickly, some Protestants insisted on doing EXACTLY what they rebuked the RCC for doing (only at times worse).

      I don't think the primary purpose of Christians is to cognatively "get it" and certainly not to correct God so that He jibes with our current sense of reality, our current philosophies and psychologies. I think our "job" is the trust and obey, to have faith and show love: we are called to faith and to ministry. I confess to being a theology junkie (big time).... and since my conversion to Lutheranism a few years ago (I'm a former Catholic), I'm increasingly positive about the Lutheran "take" on things. But I also realize that God is bigger than me, indeed bigger than ALL Christians (now and throughout time) together. Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology." I think God may laugh at some of our "takes"..... until it clearly contradicts what He Himself revealed to us in Scripture, when it flows from our supreme egoism in insisting self knows more than God, when it denies His essence (love): then I don't think God laughs.

      I have a Ph.D. One of the most important things I learned - early on - is that at times the wisest, smartest thing one can say is "I don't know." Indeed, we CANNOT learn, we cannot grow, we cannot discover and correct error unless we begin with that confession. What I'm suggesting is not relativism but humility.



      - Josiah
      A phD who learned I dont know. Thats funny.
      My ex always said that. I'm a professor in idunnoscience.

    6. Likes meluckycharms liked this post
    7. #244
      Albion's Avatar
      Albion is offline Expert Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      2,782
      Country
      United States
      CH Challenge
      298
      CH Cash
      14,145
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      19,021
      Level
      38
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      99.86%
      Rep Power
      570
      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      A phD who learned I dont know. Thats funny.
      My ex always said that. I'm a professor in idunnoscience.
      The least well educated are the ones who think they know it all. Those who are well educated usually have learned that there are many more complexities (to whatever it is) than the people in the first group ever suspected.

    8. Likes meluckycharms liked this post
    9. #245
      meluckycharms's Avatar
      meluckycharms is offline Apprentice Member
      32
      Married
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2016
      Posts
      248
      CH Challenge
      1
      CH Cash
      1,335
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      1,455
      Level
      12
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      91.9%
      Rep Power
      41
      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      The least well educated are the ones who think they know it all. Those who are well educated usually have learned that there are many more complexities (to whatever it is) than the people in the first group ever suspected.
      Or you can be a Calvinist who defines tolerance as "accepting someone right to be wrong".

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
      Last edited by meluckycharms; 01-12-2018 at 05:03 PM.

    10. #246
      MennoSota is online now Expert Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      4,308
      CH Challenge
      232
      CH Cash
      18,137
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      16,959
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      19.78%
      Rep Power
      427
      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      The least well educated are the ones who think they know it all. Those who are well educated usually have learned that there are many more complexities (to whatever it is) than the people in the first group ever suspected.
      ...and sometimes wise men are fools...
      Colossians 2:8-23
      [8]Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.
      [9]For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.
      [10]So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
      [11]When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.
      [12]For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.
      [13]You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.
      [14]He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.
      [15]In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.
      [16]So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.
      [17]For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.
      [18]Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud,
      [19]and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.
      [20]You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,
      [21]“Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?
      [22]Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.
      [23]These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.

    11. #247
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      802
      Country
      Australia
      CH Challenge
      54
      CH Cash
      4,782
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      4,096
      Level
      20
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      31.76%
      Rep Power
      111
      Post 218:
      Really? Here's what the Athanasian Creed states:

      "[b[Whosoever will be saved[/b], before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.
      Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. "

      Saved from perishing everlastingly.

      Apparently, "it" HASN'T been "firmly established" after all.
      ================================================== ============================================

      Perish everlastingly? Lets have a look at some enlightening dictionary definitions.

      Pedrito consulted the following dictionaries:
      - MacMillan Dictionary of the American Language;
      - Cambridge Dictionary;
      - Oxford Dictionary;
      - Collins Dictionary;
      - Dictionary.com.

      He found that the following meanings for “perish” could be gleaned from the five:

      1. To die, usually because of an illness or something that happens suddenly or violently, to die by accident, by being killed, by being destroyed, by harsh conditions or privation. Also (of things such as hope) to suffer complete ruin or destruction.

      2. To stop happening or existing, to come to an end, to pass away or disappear, to be destroyed forever.

      3. (Of materials such as rubber, leather, food) to decay and start to break into pieces, to lose its normal qualities, to become useless.

      ================================================== ============================================

      One dictionary only, dictionary.com gave a fourth class of meaning:

      “To suffer spiritual death.”

      What looked like an authoritative quote from the Bible was given as a supporting example.

      Unfortunately, the example given to support that meaning of “spiritual death”, ("Save us, lest we perish"), however graphic and convincing it is designed to be, would appear to actually be a modified quote from a Bible verse relating to physical death. (See Matthew 8:25 and its companion passages Mark 4:38 and Luke 8:24.) Therefore that definition can hardly be classified as reliable. Could it even be said to be contrived?

      ================================================== ============================================

      Ergo, it would seem that the Athanasian Creed not only teaches salvation by works, but also teaches annihilationism.

      ================================================== ============================================

      But it must be remembered that, because that creed is considered of great import for another reason, it is deemed crucial that these glaring deficiencies be explained away or ignored. Isn’t that indeed so?


      (If Pedrito has missed a Scripture or two from which the supporting quote noted above was taken, he is open to being so informed.)

      Is “annihilationism” what the Poster of Post #125 meant when referring to ...the just wrath of God...?
      Last edited by Pedrito; 01-15-2018 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Spelling
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    12. #248
      meluckycharms's Avatar
      meluckycharms is offline Apprentice Member
      32
      Married
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2016
      Posts
      248
      CH Challenge
      1
      CH Cash
      1,335
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      1,455
      Level
      12
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      91.9%
      Rep Power
      41
      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      ...and sometimes wise men are fools...
      Colossians 2:8-23
      Colossians 2 is Paul expresses concern against false teachers among the Jews (v.*4,*v.*6,*v.*7), and against the Gentile philosophy (v.*8-12). He represents the privileges of Christians (v.*13-15).and concludes with a caution against the judaizing teachers, and those who would introduce the worship of angels (v.*16-23).

      So what does it have to do with anything unless you are suggesting that we are Jewish teachers or gentile philosophers who worship angels in Laodicea?

      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

    13. #249
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
      56
      Married
      Mood:
      Meh
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Posts
      923
      Country
      United States
      CH Challenge
      42
      CH Cash
      3,812
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (10,500 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      6,781
      Level
      25
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      26.67%
      Rep Power
      209
      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      ================================================== ============================================

      Perish everlastingly? Lets have a look at some enlightening dictionary definitions.

      Pedrito consulted the following dictionaries:
      - MacMillan Dictionary of the American Language;
      - Cambridge Dictionary;
      - Oxford Dictionary;
      - Collins Dictionary;
      - Dictionary.com.

      He found that the following meanings for “perish” could be gleaned from the five:

      1. To die, usually because of an illness or something that happens suddenly or violently, to die by accident, by being killed, by being destroyed, by harsh conditions or privation. Also (of things such as hope) to suffer complete ruin or destruction.

      2. To stop happening or existing, to come to an end, to pass away or disappear, to be destroyed forever.

      3. (Of materials such as rubber, leather, food) to decay and start to break into pieces, to lose its normal qualities, to become useless.

      ================================================== ============================================
      Arthur finds it interesting that the definitions provided by Pedrito for "perish" generally seem to describe a process of dying or decaying rather than a final state of being. It is most curious, is it not, that this ongoing process ("perish") should be paired with "everlastingly". Might Pedrito, by chance, have looked up the definition of "everlasting" when he was exploring the definition of "perish"?

      On an unrelated subject, one wonders if Pedrito ignores all historic context when determining the intent and meaning of the original writer and hearers, or are Creeds singled out for special treatment? I assume you do know why the Athenasian Creed was created and that it was not to confront the perceived heresies of "non-anihilationism" and "salvation apart from works".

    14. Likes Josiah, Lämmchen liked this post
    15. #250
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      802
      Country
      Australia
      CH Challenge
      54
      CH Cash
      4,782
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      4,096
      Level
      20
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      31.76%
      Rep Power
      111
      In Post 247 Pedrito presented the following reliable meanings he had found for the word "perish" in five dictionaries[emphasis added]:

      1. To die, usually because of an illness or something that happens suddenly or violently, to die by accident, by being killed, by being destroyed, by harsh conditions or privation. Also (of things such as hope) to suffer complete ruin or destruction.

      2. To stop happening or existing, to come to an end, to pass away or disappear, to be destroyed forever.

      3. (Of materials such as rubber, leather, food) to decay and start to break into pieces, to lose its normal qualities, to become useless.
      Pedrito also presented a definition from one only dictionary that, based on the evidence supplied for its support, shows it to be contrived: "spiritual death".

      However, in Post #249, the Poster said:
      Arthur finds it interesting that the definitions provided by Pedrito for "perish" generally seem to describe a process of dying or decaying rather than a final state of being.
      What is the name of that technique that attempts to draw attention away from strong, inconvenient evidence?

      ================================================== ============================================

      And as for It is most curious, is it not, that this ongoing process ("perish") [note the definition of "perish" given – "ongoing process"] should be paired with "everlastingly". Might Pedrito, by chance, have looked up the definition of "everlasting" when he was exploring the definition of "perish"?

      Well, the definitions Pedrito found for “everlasting” are:

      1. lasting forever, eternal, never coming to an end.

      2. lasting or continuing for a very long or an indefinitely long time.

      3. incessant; constantly recurring.

      4. seeming never to change or end.

      5. wearisome; tedious; continuing for so long that it becomes annoying.

      The first definition appears to be the one that applies in this instance.

      ================================================== ============================================

      So the Athanasian Creed is clearly describing an everlasting death from which there is no deliverance ("second death"), as opposed to the normal physical death from which everyone is delivered.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    Tags for this Thread

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •